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Q. Wasn't in your house at all? A. I don't know, I didn't see him. I can't say whether he was or he wasn't, I did not see him. Q. But he told you he wasn't in your house, didn't he? A. Yes. Q. Where were you during the meeting? A. Part of the time I was in the kitchen, part of the time I went back to the back where Anna Mae was, and another little by way in to my bedroom. Q. When you went back to where Anna Mae was, did you visit with her? A. Yes. Q. What did she say to you? MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay, Your Honor. THE COURT: How about did he say anything to you? Sustained. MR. McMAHON: I like that. BY MR. McMAHON: Q. Did she say anything to you? A. Yes. I don't remember the exact conversation, but she was nervous about. I mean she was nervous about the fact that there were a bunch of people there, and from the bedroom she was in, it was directly in front of the parking lot, and so anybody that came in to the house you could see who was coming and going. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. She was sitting on the bed and she was distraught, I guess is the word. She was not in a good place. Q. Was she huddled up? A. I think she had her head down. I don't remember, but I know that she was, I think she had her head down, possibly on her knees, I don't remember exactly. Q. Was she frightened? A. Yes. MR. McMAHON: May I approach the witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: You may. MR. RENSCH: What page are you at, counsel? MR. McMAHON: 47. BY MR. McMAHON: Q. Have you had a chance to review a portion of your previous grand jury testimony? A. Yes. Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to what she said to you? A. Yes. Q. What did she say to you? MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained in part. Once again, this isn't offered for the truth of the matter stated, but rather JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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have felt. BY MR. McMAHON: Q. Go ahead, you can say what she said to you. A. She said that if this occurred, if they took her back to South Dakota, that I would never see her again. That no one would ever see her again. Q. What happened when the meeting was over? A. Everybody just left, they just got up and all left. Q. Did you -- did anybody say anything about where they were going? A. Somebody must have, because I understood they were going back to South Dakota. Q. Did you confront anyone? A. Yes, I did. Q. Who? A. My aunt. Q. What did you say to her? A. I asked her why they were doing that. I said why are you doing this, what is the purpose of this, or why are you doing this, you know. I don't understand this, you know, you brought her here, you wanted her to be safe, and she doesn't want to go, she doesn't want to go with you, so I don't understand why you are doing this, why? Q. Did you get an explanation? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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that I was stupid, and I didn't know what was going on, and kind of pushed me aside and told me to just shut up. Q. So did they take Anna Mae? A. Yeah, I, I don't remember exactly who, but somebody went to the bathroom and told her to come on, she was going with them. Q. Was Anna Mae crying? A. Yeah, she was crying. Q. Was she scared? A. Yes. Q. Did she go voluntarily? A. She didn't want to go with them, but she went voluntarily, and I think it was because of me. Q. Was she tied up? A. No, she wasn't. Q. Was she ever tied up? A. I never saw her tied. Q. Did you see them put her in the car? A. I saw them when they were leaving. At some point I went back to my bedroom, went back in to my bedroom and I spoke with Angie Begay briefly, and I asked Angie to help me, you know, to try to stop what was going on. Q. Did you see who got in the car? A. I am not exactly certain, but I know there were four JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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know, in the back of the little car. Q. Whose car was it? A. Aunt Theda's. Q. What color was it? A. It was red. Q. You know what kind it was? A. I think it was a Pinto. Q. So you know she was put in to that car? A. Um-hum. Q. And now she was put in the back end? A. Um-hum. She was small and she could fit in there without much discomfort. You know, she was sitting up. Q. Was Theda in the car? A. Yes. Q. Was John Graham in the car? A. Yes. Q. Was Arlo Looking Cloud in the car? A. I think so. Q. Did he later tell you that he was in the car? A. I am not sure. Q. What did you do then? A. I tried to call the police. Q. Did you call the police? A. Yes. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. I, at that time there wasn't a 911 direct service, you had to call a number, you know, like the seven digit number, and then they put you through to a dispatcher, something like that. And so I was only at the first part of the call and Angle Begay came in and hung the phone up and said, you know, don't do this. You know, it is just going to cause more problems, don't do this, don't get involved in this. Q. So you say Angie Begay? A. Yes. Q. What is her name now? A. Angie Janis. Q. And she stopped you from making that call? A. Yes. Q. Did you try to call back? A. No. Q. Did you try to call back after Angie left? A. I don't know if Angie left, I don't remember. Q. Well, she didn't live with you for the rest of your life, did she? A. No. Q. Did you ever call the police and report this? A. No. Q. When was the next time you saw Mr. Looking Cloud? A. I don't remember. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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John Graham? A. I don't know the, I don't know the exact date, but it was soon after that time. I don't know the exact time, but it was soon, like within a week or something like that I would say. Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Graham what had happened? A. No. Q. Why not? A. Because I had heard, or I had talked with somebody in South Dakota and they said that Anna Mae was in Oglala, so I didn't think there was any concern. Q. Well, at some point in time did you learn that she had been killed? A. Not until the day that they found her. Q. So eventually you did? A. Um-hum. Q. Did you ask Mr. Graham what happened then? A. No. Q. Why not? A. Because I never thought that he had anything to do with it. Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Looking Cloud what happened? A. No. Q. Why not? JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. So even though they left in the car with her, you didn't think they had anything to do with it? A. No. I never had anything to fear from them, they are not anybody that I would fear, and there was nothing frightful for me. It wasn't me that was frightened or fearful, it was Anna Mae. Q. That whole event, that whole meeting at your house wasn't frightening to you at all? A. No. Q. Didn't bother you at all? A. No. Q. Why did you try to call the police then? A. Because she didn't want to go. Q. It must have bothered you somewhat then? A. Yes. Q. But then you just dropped it? A. Yes. Q. When was it that you found out she was dead? A. We were here in Rapid City at Mother Butler's I think for the, one of the anniversaries of Wounded Knee. Q. So would it have been some time in February of '76? A. Probably the end of February. Possibly the first of March, I don't remember the exact date, but that is the anniversary of Wounded Knee, and that is what was going on JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. Did you ever ask your Aunt Theda what had happened after they left with her, with Anna Mae? A. No, and if I had, she wouldn't have answered me anyway. She never told me anything. Q. Well, now after, some time after the body was discovered you were approached by law enforcement on several different occasions, weren't you? A. A number of years later, yes. Q. Like two years later? A. I don't, I think it was much longer than two years. I don't know the exact amount of time, but it was quite a while. Q. And you refused to talk to them, didn't you? A. Probably. Q. Well, you did, didn't you? A. Probably, yeah, I guess. You know. I didn't have too much to talk about with law enforcement at that time. Q. Well, is that because you had already forgotten about this meeting that took place at your house? A. No. Q. You had remembered it still by then, hadn't you? A. It had nothing to do with that meeting. Q. It didn't? A. No. It wasn't my practice to talk at all to law enforcement. JERRY J. MAY, RPR. CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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attempted to call the police, but after you found out she was dead you refused to talk with law enforcement? A. Yes. Q. When was the first time that you visited with Mr. Looking Cloud about what had happened that evening after they left your house? A. I don't think I ever did. Arlo never discussed anything with me, he would not have involved me in any of it. Q. We talked a minute ago about the fact that you were in on a conversation. A. Well, I didn't know anything until that time. Until this time that he talked to Trudell I never knew anything about what had happened. Q. Okay. My question was when was the first time? A. That was the first time. Q. So it would have been when you and Mr. Looking Cloud met with John Trudell? A. Yes. Q. Who was John Trudell? A. John Trudell was at one time the national spokesman for the American Indian Movement. He was also a close, a very close friend. And at this particular time he was, he was a poet, and he was traveling with a group called Midnight Oil, and he was the opening performance for them. And he was in JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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and that he would leave tickets for me at the box office. And so Arlo just happened to come that evening and we picked up the tickets and went to the Midnight Oil concert. And then the tickets had back stage passes and we went to, we went back- stage and met the people that were part of the Midnight Oil group, and I think Quilt Man and who ever else was traveling with Trudell. Q. Who was in on this conversation with John Trudell? A. We went, after the concert we went to a hotel downtown that they were all staying at, the bands were staying at, and we were there with them for a little while. I don't know how long, but for some length of time everybody just visited upstairs in the hotel room. And then at some point in time Arlo and Trudell and I went down to my car, it was parked on the street beside the hotel. Q. So just the three of you then had a conversation? A. Yes. Q. Did Mr. Looking Cloud talk about what happened after they left your house that night with Anna Mae? A. Yes. Q. Did he tell you and Mr. Trudell where they went to? A. I think he said they went to Rapid City. Q. Did he tell you where they went in Rapid City? A. I am not sure that he told me, but at what point in time JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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to Thelma Rios' house. I don't know that he told us that. I don't remember exactly what was, who said what or who told what, but I knew they went to Thelma Rios' home. Q. He told you they went to a home in Rapid City? A. mn-hum. Q. Did he tell you where they went after that? A. He said they went to Rosebud. Q. And did he tell you what he did while they were in Rapid City at that home? A. No. Q. Did he ever tell you that he was helping to guard Anna Mae? A. I think he was there, but I don't know that guard was the word that was used. Q. Well, may I approach. Your Honor? THE COURT: You may. BY MR. McMAHON: Q. Have you had a chance to review your grand jury testimony? A. Yes. Q. Does that help refresh you, what he said? A. There was a question on there if Arlo was guarding Anna Mae Aquash at that house, and my reply is that I think he was along with John Boy, but I don't know that. I wasn't there. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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A. He just said to Rosebud. Q. Did he tell you that they had stopped on the Pine Ridge Reservation at Allen? A. He may have, but I don't remember. Q. He didn't say what particular place they went to on Rosebud? A. He didn't know. Q. Did they stop somewhere? A. What do you mean did they stop somewhere, when they got to Rosebud? Q. Yes. A. He said they went to a house in Rosebud. Q. They went to a house, but he didn't know whose house? A. No. Q. And what did he tell you took place while they were at that house? A. He said he didn't go in, he stayed outside. He sat outside with Anna Mae in the car. Q. And who went in the house? A. I guess John Boy and Aunt Theda. Q. What did he tell you about a conversation he had with Anna Mae in the car while they were alone together in that car? A. He said that she told him that they were deciding her JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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let her go. Q. Didn't she beg him to let her go? A. I think she asked him, you know, very sincerely. I guess you could say begging. Q. And he wouldn't let her go? A. He said that he couldn't do that. That nothing -- she thought that they were deciding what was going to happen to her in there, and she told him that they were going to be, what ever they decided in there he was probably going to have to carry it through. And he said that he told her that that wasn't, that wasn't going to happen, there wasn't any basis for that, you know, he didn't believe that. Q. He wouldn't let her go, would he? A. No, he said he couldn't do that. Q. Did he tell you where they went then? A. He said they drove into the Bad Lands. Q. To the Bad Lands? A. Um-hum. I don't know the place. Q. What happened then? A. He said that they got out of the car, and that Theda stayed in the car, and that he and John Boy walked up a hill. Q. What was Anna Mae saying while they walked up that hill? A. He said that she said that they didn't have, they don't have to do this, they could just leave her there and let her JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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Q. Was she begging them not to kill her? A. I don't know. Q. You on one occasion relayed what Arlo told you to Kamook Nichols, didn't you? A. We discussed a lot of things. Q. And that is part of what you discussed, isn't it? A. Yes. Q. And you have had an opportunity to review, just review now a part of a tape recording transcript that was made during that conversation, haven't you? A. Yes. Q. Does that help refresh your recollection as to what Mr. Looking Cloud told you Anna Mae was saying as they walked up that hill? A. Yes. Q. What was she saying? A. That she asked them to let her go, that they didn't have to do that to her. Q. Was she crying? A. She was crying I think. Q. And she telling them that she had two young daughters? A. I don't know that. Q. She begged them to let her go? A. I don't know that. JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
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