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PAGES 266 to 280

 

 

PAGE 266

 

Q. You don't remember that?

A. That doesn't say that in there, doesn't say anything

about two young daughters.

Q. Did she tell them she hadn't done anything wrong to

anybody?

A. Yes.

Q. She told them they didn't have to do this to her?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Looking Cloud also told that to Mr. Trudell, didn't

he?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Isn't that what he told you?

A. Yes.

Q. Now you said before you were there when Mr. Looking

Cloud visited with Kamook Nichols about this, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he tell her a lot less of the story than he told to

you and Mr. Trudell?

A. He didn't tell her very much. I don't even remember

really what we talked about, but he had just gotten out of

jail, he was in a very fit place, he was detoxing, he didn't

have too much to say.

MR. McMAHON: That's all I have. Your Honor.

THE COURT: You may cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RENSCH:

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 267


Q. Would you ever lie under oath?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever lied under oath in this case?

A. No.

Q. Are you afraid that people think you have something to

do with the death of Ms. Pictou-Aquash?

A. Afraid like how?

Q. Are you afraid you are going to be charged in helping

with her murder?

A. I felt that at times.

Q. Did you help with her murder?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Your Aunt Theda Clark back in 1975 was how old? Was she

in her fifties?

A. She is 80, going to be 81 years old, so I don't know.

Q. You say that when you tried to stop this that she just

basically brushed you aside and called you stupid, is that

right?

A. And a few more.

Q. What did she say to you?

A. She cursed and cussed, and which was her normal language

at times when she was angry, and even when she wasn't it was

her normal language.

Q. She was pushy, wasn't she?

A. Yes.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 268


Q. She would tell people to do things, wouldn't she?

A. I don't know what the difference between telling and

asking is, but she asked in a forceful manner, and not very

many people did not do what she asked.

Q. Do you love your Aunt Theda?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Been close to her for many, many years?

A. She was like my second mother.

Q. You would never want to see anything bad happen to her,

would you?

A. No.

Q. You agree that blood is thicker than water?

A. Yes.

Q. Meaning you are closer to your relatives than you are

your friends, right?

A. Well, in our way almost everybody is our relative, all

of the Lakota people are my relatives.

Q. Do you specifically remember what Arlo told you happened

from the point Ms. Pictou-Aquash was taken out of that car and

walked to the edge of the hill?

A. Do I remember exactly?

Q. Yes?

A. Just that I think she tried to dissuade them about

taking her up the hill.

Q. Did she try to dissuade Arlo, or did she try to dissuade

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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John Boy, do you know?

A. I don't know. I think probably both, but I wouldn't

know.

Q. When you listened to Arlo, it was your impression that

when she was shot it was a total surprise to him, isn't that

true?

A. Yes.

Q. When you listened to what Arlo described to John

Trudell, it was your impression that he didn't want her to

die, isn't that true?

A. I don't believe he ever thought it would happen.

Q. Well, was it your impression in listening to his words

that he wanted her to die?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever hear him say that he wanted her to die?

A. Of course not.

Q. Did you ever hear him say that he was in any way in

control of the situation?

A. He was never in control.

Q. It is at your house when this meeting occurred, I want

to clear something up. Was Arlo present at this meeting?

A. I never saw him. There was so much going on and there

was so much confusion, I never, ever saw Arlo. I never talked

to Arlo. I wish that I had had the opportunity to talk to or

see Arlo, I never saw him.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 270


Q. Can you tell this jury with certainty that he was not in

that meeting room?

A. He was not in that meeting room. I don't know at what

point he came in, I never saw him. I have heard from others

that he came in and went down into the basement. I have heard

some others that he never came all the way in the house. I

don't know, I never saw him. I know, I don't even know how I

know that he left with them. Things were really confusing,

and, you know, it was just really hard to be absolutely

certain of anything.

Q. Is it possible that when Arlo was explaining what

Ms. Pictou-Aquash was saying that he was saying that she was

asking the people in the car to let her go?

A. I don' t know.

Q. Do you, can you specifically recall him talking about

just exactly where Ms. Pictou-Aquash was when she was asking

to be let go?

A. It was either in the car or it was at the hill. I can't

absolutely say for certain.

Q. It's very important we try to pin this down, because --

well, it's obvious why it's important. Do you know whether

what he described to you was Ms. Pictou-Aquash saying these

things in the car, or walking up toward the hill?

A. I don't know. I am not absolutely certain.

Q. So you have known Arlo for a long time, is that right?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 271


A. Yes.

Q. After this weekend in December of 1975, he wasn't doing

much with the American Indian Movement after that time, was

he?

A. I didn't see Arlo for some length of time. I can't tell

you what the length of time was, but I just, that was possibly

one of the reasons why we never talked about anything that had

happened, because I didn't see him.

Q. In these years that have passed since that December

night, has Arlo, what has he become?'

A. Well, he drinks a lot. He has, always had a home with

this family, but he chose to just be a vagabond and go about

wherever, and I don't know, just everybody knew him, everybody

knows him in Denver. All the people and many others, the

Lakota people, they are, he is welcome in their homes,

everybody's children they all call him uncle. He just comes

and goes from all different peoples' homes.

Q. Did he live on the streets?

A. Like what do you mean live? He lived out, he was out on

the street a lot, but he didn't sleep on the street unless he

passed out there maybe, I don't know.

Q. Was he a street person?

A. It is kind of hard to delineate a street person. If he

had a home, if you have a home to go to, if you choose to be

out and about, then it is sort of a matter of choice, I guess,

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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I don't know.

Q. Did he have apartments or houses or anything like that

to go to that were his own?

A. At times he did.

Q. Through the years as you have spoken to Arlo, how has

his ability to communicate changed, if any?

A. How has his.

Q. Ability to communicate changed?

A. He doesn't trust a lot of people.

Q. How about just the way he talks, do you feel as you

listen to him that, well, he might have some problems with his

mind?

A. I think that drinking debilitates anybody's mind.

Q. Are you telling this jury that Arlo told you that he

helped kill this poor lady?

A. Arlo never told me that he helped kill anybody.

Q. Well, you have told us that he said that he and John Boy

walked her out to the edge while she was begging, and I need

to know did he tell you that?

A. I can't tell you exactly when anything happened, but I

know, I don' t know.

Q. Isn't it true, Ma'am, that you testified before a grand

jury in 1995, you remember coming up and testifying before the

grand jury?

A. In Sioux Falls.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 273


Q. Page 25. I want to ask you if were you asked this

question and if you gave this answer. Question, and it's your

testimony to this grand jury that you never talked to Arlo

Looking Cloud about what had happened to Anna Mae? Answer,

no, I didn't talk to Arlo. Arlo didn't talk to me about it.

Is that the question and answer that you gave under oath back

in 1995.

A. Yes. Arlo never did really talk with me about it. I

only was there when he talked, he told Trudell what happen,

Arlo never discussed anything with me.

Q. You were just telling Mr. McMahon that he was talking to

you out there in the car while Mr. Trudell was there?

A. He wasn't talking to me, I was sitting in the car and he

was talking. He told Trudell, I just sat there and listened.

I wasn't a part of the conversation.

Q. You understand, do you not, that you don't want anything

bad to happen to your Aunty Theda, do you?

A. No.

Q. Would you lie for her?

A. Would I lie for my aunt?

Q. Yes?

A. I wouldn't lie for her, I wouldn't speak at all.

Q. Would you lie for Arlo?

A. That's a difficult question.

Q. Would you lie under oath?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 274


A. No.

Q. Arlo told you that he was coming over to your house to

meet a friend by the name of Joe Morgan, didn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. And that he was coming over to meet Joe Morgan to go

drinking with him?

A. Yes.

Q. And that when he showed up at your house, your Aunt

Theda asked him if he would drive to Rapid City, isn't that

correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And that he drove to Rapid City, isn't that right?

A. I can't say that he drove all the way.

Q. He drove part of the way?

A. I am sure that he drove part of the way.

Q. And they ended up at some vacant apartment that we later

learned to be Thelma Rios?

A. Yes.

Q. And that when Ms. Pictou-Aquash is in that apartment,

Arlo went to get gas for the car and ran in to a guy named

Tony Red Cloud?

A. I think he did tell me that, but I don't remember that.

When you are telling me then you are bringing back a memory

that I have kind of forgotten.

Q. And that when he got back, Theda and John Boy were mad

JERRY J. MAY. RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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at him because he was gone for so long?

A. He did tell me that.

Q. When did he tell you that?

A. I don't know, I don't remember.

Q. And then he told you that they went down to Rosebud, and

he didn't know whose house it was, but it was by the hospital

down there, isn't that correct?

A. I don't think he, I don't remember even by the hospital,

all I know it was a house in Rosebud.

Q. And that he just stayed out in the car as Theda and John

Boy went in?

A. Yes.

Q. Then the car drove toward Kadoka?

A. Yes.

Q. And that when the car pulled over on the side of the

road, John Boy got Ms. Pictou-Aquash out of the car, isn't

that what he told you?

A. Yes.

Q. And that either Theda or John Boy told him that he

should follow John Boy, isn't that what he said to you?

A. Yes.

Q. And that when he started to follow, she began to pray

and John Boy shot her in the back of the head, and this was a

surprise to Arlo, isn't that what he told you, Ma'am?

A. I think that he said that she knelt down and then John

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, tt305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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Boy shot her.

Q. But it was a surprise to him?

A. Yes.

Q. And that John Boy turned, and Arlo had never met him

before, did he tell you that?

A. I don't think Arlo did know John Boy.

Q. And that when John Boy turned he looked at Arlo, and

Arlo didn't know what to do, did he tell you that?

A. I don't remember that.

Q. And that he then asked for the gun from John Boy because

he wanted to empty it, and he fired the gun over the

embankment, didn't he tell you that, Ma'am?

A. I don't remember that.

Q. And he emptied that gun because he didn't want John Boy

to be able to shoot him, isn't that what he told you?

A. I don't, you know what, what you are telling me I have

some recollection of, but I don't remember when or what.

Q. And that they went back to the vehicle and it was quiet

in the vehicle as they drove back toward Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. And that they stopped at a bridge because they were

going to bury the gun, didn't he tell you that?

A. He didn't tell me, he told Trudell.

Q. He told Trudell that they stopped at the bridge?

A. They stopped and they buried the gun someplace. He

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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didn't say where, I don't remember where.

Q. So what you are telling us, the only time you ever

talked to him was when he was with Trudell, is that what you

are saying?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Once they got back to Denver he was through with the

American Indian Movement, he was done with it, isn't that what

he told you?

A. I don't know if he told me that or, you know, or it just

was that way.

Q. This whole thing ruined his life, didn't it, Ma'am?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. He never once said to you that he wanted that woman to

die, did he?

A. He wouldn't have had a part of it if he knew that was

going to happen.

MR. RENSCH: Nothing further, thank you.

THE COURT: Redirect.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Where is your Aunt Theda now?

A. She is in a nursing home in Crawford, Nebraska.

Q. You said you wouldn't have wanted anything bad to happen

to her?

A. Of course not.

Q. And you don't want anything bad to happen to Mr. Looking

JERRY J. MAY. RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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Cloud either, do you?

A. No.

Q. You want to protect him the best that you can?

A. Yes.

Q. You were asked some questions about whether there was

one conversation about Anna Mae begging to be let free or two,

you remember those questions from Mr. Rensch?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Now when you told Kamook Nichols what Mr. Looking Cloud

told you concerning what was going on when they got her in the

car in the Bad Lands, didn't you tell her that she was begging

them not to kill her at that time?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember. Did you just read this?

A. Yes, but then all of this is, there is pages and

endless, you know.

Q. But didn't this say right here that you were talking

about when they went out to the field she was begging them not

to kill her?

A. Yes.

Q. And that she was crying?

A. Yes.

Q. And that she --

A. That's what it says on there. So that's the testimony

obviously. I can't tell you exactly, because I don't remember

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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everything.

Q. And she just kept asking them not to do it?

A. I would say yes.

Q. And that they didn't listen to her, and they just kept

marching her out there?

A. Well, I don't know how far the march was, but I assume

so.

Q. That's what you said, isn't it?

A. That's what it says on the paper.

Q. Are you denying that this tape recording is accurate?

A. What do you mean by that?

Q. Are you claiming that you didn't say this?

A. We talked about a lot of different things.

Q. Are you claiming that you didn't say this?

A. No. You are confusing me.

Q. Just a minute. Page 64, Counsel. Did you have a chance

to look at your grand jury testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were asked a question, did you have a

conversation with Anna Mae while he was setting in the car

with her, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And your answer was that he said that Anna Mae told him

that I mean she begged him, and pleaded with him to let her

go, to let her out, to let her go, and he told her he couldn't

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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do that?

A. Yes.

Q. So there were two conversations about being let go,

weren't there?

A. But see, I am not certain of that. That's what I keep

telling you, I am not certain about. I believe that this

happened, but I don't know which place it was. I don't know

if it was one place or the other. I don't know that there was

two conversations, I think there was one.

Q. You talked about two?

A. Well.

Q. You talked about one in the car and one at the field,

didn't you?

A. Yes, but I think that there was only one. I am not

certain.

Q. Well, which place was it?

A. I don't know.

Q. Which one were you making up?

A. I don' t know.

MR. McMAHON: That's all.

RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RENSCH:

Q. You know we went through some testimony back in 1995

where you denied under oath having any conversations at all

with Arlo Looking Cloud about this, do you recall that?

A. Yes.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

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