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PAGES 416 to 430

 

 

 

PAGE 416

 

Q. What would be the significance of those ligature

markings?

A. The significance would be that at the time of her, that

she was shot and killed, and at the time she was shot and

killed that she was tied up at the time.

Q. Why do you say that she would have been tied up at the

time?

A. Because these are post mortem markings, means the heart

stopped beating, the blood stopped flowing through her system,

and those marks were left as a result of no blood going

through her system at the time.

Q. I want to move onto the time -- sir, at the time you met

with Al Gates, did the discussions you had with him lead you

to another suspect in the matter?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. Who was that suspect?

A. It actually led us to the defendant here, Mr. Arlo

Looking Cloud, John Graham, John Boy Patton, and Theda Nelson,

Theda Clark.

Q. Specifically as to the defendant Arlo Looking Cloud, did

you take some actions to attempt to obtain information from

him?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Can you tell us initially what you did in that regard,

sir?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 417


A. My initial interview with him was conducted at the

Denver County jail. I had contacted detective, or Detective

Abe Alonzo from the Denver police department had contacted me

and said that Mr. Looking Cloud was in custody on some local

charges, and that he was being held. And at that point in

time I had learned information through my investigation that

Mr. Looking Cloud was either an adoptive relative of Theda

Clark, Theda Nelson, in an Indian way that she at some point

in time had said that she had adopted him and that he might

have some information pertaining to the murder of Anna Mae

Aquash.

Q. Did you make contact with Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. Yes, on September 6, 1994 was my first interview with

Mr. Looking Cloud, and that was conducted by myself and

Detective Abe Alonzo at the Denver County jail in Denver,

Colorado.

Q. Mr. Looking Cloud was in custody at that time?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. Was he informed of his rights?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. Did he talk to you regarding this incident at that time?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Can you tell us what the conversation was, what you

asked him and what the responses were?

A. Basically I introduced myself to Mr. Looking Cloud, I

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, tt305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 418


introduced Detective Abe Alonzo. I told him I was the United

States Marshal for the Federal District of South Dakota, that

I was conducting an investigation into the murdered of Anna

Mae Aquash. I told him that the information had been obtained

that he might have some knowledge as to, and some involvement

pertaining to the case, and that I would like his cooperation

in resolving the matter.

Q. Did he agree to speak to you?

A. Yes, he did. He said that he didn't know anything about

Anna Mae Aquash. I told him that the murder occurred around

the first or second week of December in 1975. He said he

didn't know Anna Mae Aquash. Matter of fact, he said that he

wasn't in Denver at the time, that he thought that he was in

Florida during December of 1975. At that point in time I told

him that I had information that I had seen at the Denver

police intelligence section where police officers had stopped

him outside of Troy Lynn Irving's residence on the night of

September 13th, 1975. At that point in time he said he didn't

know anything about it. I said if he was willing to

cooperate, that maybe the local prosecutor would be willing to

drop the local charges on him. He said that he would take it

under consideration.

Q. That was the extent of that first discussion?

A. Yes.

Q. I want to jump ahead a bit and ask you if you had

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 419


another discussion with Mr. Looking Cloud at a later date that

resulted in a trip up to South Dakota?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. If you could, can you tell us first of all how that

contact came about, what happened?

A. Around July 24th of 1975 I got a call --

Q. Excuse me, '95?

A. 1995, excuse me. I got a call from Detective Abe

Alonzo, and I also at that point in time had a deputy, United

States Marshal by the name of Rick Iannucci working with me on

the case. Detective Alonzo said Mr. Looking Cloud was again

in jail serving some time on local charges in Denver and that

he was in custody. At that point in time I asked him if they

would go talk to him and see if he would cooperate, and take

part in a trip back up to South Dakota here and to show us

what happened to Anna Mae Aquash, the places they took her,

and the places they held her, and what route they took out to

the crime scene where she was killed. Detective Alonzo and

Iannucci at that point in time talked with the defendant here,

Mr. Looking Cloud, Mr. Looking Cloud agreed to come up here to

South Dakota. He came up on the 25th of July. At that point

in time on the 24th of July, on the 25th we picked him up here

at the Pennington County jail. At that point in time I

advised him of his rights again, asked him if he had

representation from any attorney. And he said no, that he

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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didn't, but he said he was willing to cooperate and to show us

where they had Anna Mae Aquash prior to her murder.

Q. Just to clarify a couple of things. When you say he

came up, he was in custody when he came up, is correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. So he didn't come up on his own?

A. That's correct.

Q. Secondly, so we are certain, do you recognize

Mr. Looking Cloud and see him in the courtroom today?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Could you describe where he is seated and what he is

wearing?

A. Sitting right here with the sweater on and glasses.

MR. MANDEL: Ask the record reflect the witness has

identified the defendant, Your Honor?

THE COURT: It may.

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Now after you went through the procedure where you read

him his rights and he agreed to cooperate with you, can you

tell us what next took place?

A. Yes. After we talked to him at the Pennington County

jail he agreed to cooperate. We read him his rights, I was in

my vehicle which was the U.S. Marshal vehicle, Detective

Alonzo and Deputy U.S. Marshal Iannucci. We loaded him up at

the Pennington County jail and then took him around here. He

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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agreed to take us around in Rapid City here and show us where

they held her. We picked him up at the jail, he took us out

in to North Rapid City at the Knollwood Apartment complex.

Q. You say Knollwood?

A. Yes. Apartment complex. He told us that he pulled up

there with Theda Clark and John Boy Patton, that they had Anna

Mae, that they had tied her up in Denver, Colorado, that they

brought her up there, that they pulled in up at that apartment

complex, and that at that point in time they went in to what

was considered an apartment in which nobody was living at at

the time, and they held her there when they got there.

Q. He take you to any other locations in Rapid City?

A. From there he said, well, we took her from there. And I

asked him did you go to the Wounded Knee Legal Defense office

here in Rapid City, and I told him that we had information

pertaining to interrogation there of her, and he said no. He

says that he wasn't involved in taking her to that house.

Matter of fact, he said that he had left that apartment for a

while and then he had returned.

Q. Did he indicate to you what happened after he had

returned to the apartment?

A. He said Theda was very angry with him, screamed at him

and chewed him out, wanted to know where he went. Then he

said he stayed there for the rest of the day. And then he

said that night when it got dark, then they left Rapid City,

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 422


they tied her up, they put her in the back of the car, they

left Rapid City and they took her down through the Pine Ridge

Indian Reservation up through Wanblee.

Q. Did he tell you about any other place they traveled to?

A. He said that they had stopped at a residence, they were

getting low on gas. He said they stopped at a residence which

was a relative of his at the Potato Creek Housing on the Pine

Ridge Reservation, they had borrowed some gas, and then after

borrowing the gas they went on up through Wanblee.

Q. Did you travel to Wanblee with Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who was present when you did that?

A. Myself, Detective Abe Alonzo, and Deputy United States

Marshal Rick Iannucci.

Q. Was one of the purposes out there to take some

photographs of the scene where this happened?

A. Yes. Mr. Looking Cloud agreed to provide basically a

reenactment of what had happened with Ms. Aquash at the crime

scene there.

(Exhibit 1, 2, 3 & 15 marked For identification.)

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. I have handed you what are marked Exhibits 1, 2, 3 and

15. First of all, are those all photographs that were taken

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 423


on that day?

A. Yes, they are.

Q. Who actually took the photographs?

A. Detective Abe Alonzo.

Q. They show various views of the crime scene?

A. Yes, they do.

MR. MANDEL: I offer Exhibits 1, 2, 3 and 15, Your

Honor.

MR. RENSCH: No objection.

THE COURT: Exhibits 1, 2, 3 and 15 are received.

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Sir, first showing you Exhibit 1, can you tell us what

that shot is, where it is shot from at the scene?

A. Exhibit 1 was shot basically from the roadway, which

would show the embankment that was being walked to.

Q. And the time these photographs were being taken, did

Mr. Looking Cloud indicate to you anything about what had

happened that night when they arrived there at the scene?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. What did he tell you?

A. He said that they went to junction 73 and 44, that they

drove about three miles north of that junction down into the

bottom of the Bad Lands there. He said that they pulled over

along side of the road, said that, I believe he said he was

sitting in the front on the passenger side, that Theda Nelson

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 424


Clark was driving, and that John Boy was sitting in the back

seat, and Anna Mae was tied up in the back. He said that

Theda pulled over on the side of the road there. He had us

pull over right about this location, which was actually about

a hundred yards from the actual crime scene itself.

Q. Is Exhibit 2 another photograph that you took out there?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Who are the three individuals pictured in the

photograph?

A. The person in the front is the defendant Arlo Looking

Cloud.

Q. That's in the white T shirt?

A. That's correct. I am in the middle and Deputy United

States Marshal Rick Iannucci is in the back.

Q. That's heading over toward the scene?

A. Yes. He was basically reenacting saying we got her out

of the car, we took her and this is how we walked.

Q. Sir, taking a look at Exhibit No. 3, can you tell me

about that photograph?

A. That photograph there is actually right near the crime

scene there. At that point in time the defendant, Mr. Looking

Cloud, was explaining what had happened as they got her up to

the scene.

Q. What did he explain?

A. He said that they, after they got her out of the car,

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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they walked her through the ditch as exhibited in the other

photo. When they got her up here he said Anna Mae said that

she wanted to pray first. She said that when she said that,

said that she started to pray. He said John Boy pulled out

the gun, put it at the back of her head and pulled the

trigger.

Q. Are you standing there at the location where that

happened according to Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what about Exhibit 15?

A. Exhibit 15 is just a continuation of basically his

reenactment. At that point in time he was telling the story,

he said after John Boy shot Anna Mae in the back of the head,

he said that he wasn't sure what was going to happen to him,

so he asked John Boy for the gun. He says that John Boy

handed him the gun, he thought he might be shot next, so he

took the gun and he fired directly into the ground emptying

the gun.

Q. Did he point to the location where he said he fired it

into the ground?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Where was that?

A. Just basically straight down. Not down where Anna Mae

fell, but on the top of the bank where they were, where we

were standing. He said I fired into the ground, emptied the

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 426


gun and handed it back and we walked back to the car.

Q. So up there on the top of that Bad Lands wall there?

A. That's correct.

Q. At some point as part of your investigation did you go

out to that same crime scene with a metal detector?

A. I didn't go out to the crime scene with a metal

detector, but I had a couple of my agents go out with a metal

detector. After he gave the story, had them go out and go

through this whole area, the location, and the exact location

where Roger Amiotte pointed out where the body was found to

see if they could recover any of these bullets the defendant

said he fired into the ground.

Q. Were they able to do so, sir?

A. No, they weren't.

Q. After you took the photographs at the scene, did you

have any more discussion with the defendant regarding this

matter?

A. I asked him, I said now Arlo, you are telling me that

John Boy handed you the gun? And he said yes. And you are

telling that you fired into the ground? And he said yes. So

I asked him, I said or is it, aren't you just trying to

explain why your fingerprints would be on that weapon? And he

said -- I said isn't it a possibility that you are the person

who shot her. And he said no, I didn't shoot her, but I just

fired the gun into the ground and then I handed the gun back

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 427


to John Boy.

Q. As far as the journey you made with the defendant on

that day, did you also attempt to locate the weapon?

A. Yes, we did. Enroute back to Rapid City he claims that

they buried the gun underneath a bridge between Interior and

Wanblee, and we stopped at a location where there was a bridge

on the BIA route there. He said they buried the weapon

underneath that bridge. We got out with him, we went down

underneath the bridge, and looked at the area and different

things, and he could not at that point in time point out where

the weapon was buried.

Q. Was there any further discussion on that day relative to

this?

A. No, there wasn't.

Q. Did you have an occasion to conduct another interview of

the defendant in March of 2003?

A. Yes. On March 27, 2003.

Q. Can you tell us what the circumstances of that interview

were?

A. At that point in time the defendant here, Arlo Looking

Cloud, was indicted by a federal grand jury. A federal

warrant had been issued on him for the first degree murder of

Anna Mae Aquash. I was in Albuquerque, New Mexico on the

27th, I received a telephone call from Detective Abe Alonzo.

MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 428


THE COURT: Not yet. Overruled.

A. I received a telephone call from Detective Abe Alonzo

informing me that he had arrested the defendant Arlo Looking

Cloud.

Q. Then what did you do?

A. I immediately jumped on the airplane in Albuquerque, New

Mexico and flew to Denver, Colorado so I would have an

opportunity to interview the defendant here.

Q. Did the defendant agree to be interviewed at that time?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Can you tell us what the -- first of all, what the

location of that interview was?

A. My interview was conducted at the Denver police

department, I believe in the narcotics section, and we had him

in an interview room there that was video and audio taped.

(Exhibit 45 marked For identification.)

Q. Sir, I have handed you what has been marked Exhibit No.

45. I will ask you if you recognize that?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What is that?

A. This is a video tape of the interview conducted with the

defendant here, Arlo Looking Cloud.

Q. Did you watch that same videotape again today?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

 

PAGE 429


A. Yes, I did.

Q. First of all, does it accurately reflect the interview

that took place?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. Are there any parts of the interview that were taken

out?

A. No.

Q. Without getting into the transcription on the bottom,

was there anything that was added in terms of what was said or

shown?

A. No.

Q. Does that tape also have what I will call a kind of

running scroll line on the bottom showing a transcript of what

was said?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. That is something that was added to the tape later?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you listen to the tape and compare what is shown on

that scroll line with what is heard on the videotape?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Does it accurately reflect what is on the videotape?

A. It does.

MR. MANDEL: Your Honor, I offer Exhibit 45 at this

time.

MR. RENSCH: I have no objection, just so the jury

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877


 

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is instructed about transcripts in the course of the

videotape.

THE COURT: Don't start it yet. Exhibit 45 is

received.

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Again at that interview was Mr. Looking Cloud informed

of his rights?

A. Yes, he was.

Q. Did he agree to speak to you again regarding this

incident?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Generally in this recorded interview overall I know

there is detail differences, but in general did he tell you

pretty much the same thing he had related to you in the past

regarding this?

A. Yes, he did.

MR. MANDEL: Your Honor, leave of the Court I would

ask to play the tape at this time.

THE COURT: Just a minute. Before playing the tape

I want to give the jury an instruction. There is a

typewritten transcript of the tape recording you heard. The

transcript which apparently is a script that appears

underneath the tape, is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

THE COURT: Attempts to apparently identify the

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

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