PAGES 386 to 400
because she was afraid, and she told me at that time, you
know, she had had a run-in with David Price and that Price was
trying to get her to tell about the Oglala fire fight, and in
the course of that she swore at him, and then he said to her
that he would see her dead within the year. And she was upset
about that. So when she came and I saw her in September, she
said to me, you know, that if you ever want to, if you had to
go somewhere, she would go, there was an island where she grew
up, and that would be the place she would go that would be
safe for her. Then she told me to, that in the rain, she
loved the rain, and to always remember her in the rain, and we
had this conversation, and at that time her fear was about
that. She was angry because still accusations, name calling
about her being an informant or a pig, she was angry about
that, and then now, but then now the element of fear has been
added because of this dialogue she said that she had. Then
after she had been arrested in the mobile home incident in
Oregon, so this would have been around the end of November or
December, I don't remember the exact time, but I got a letter
and a ring from her that was delivered through Mathalene White
Q. Who's ring was it?
A. It was Anna Mae's ring.
Q. How did you know that?
A. Because Anna Mae and I had an understanding that just
JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
communicate with me, that she would send this ring, because
then I would know somebody wasn't playing a bunch of games.
Q. You also said you received a letter.
Q. Do you still have that letter?
A. No, it burned down in my, there was a fire in my home in
1979 and it burned.
Q. Do you know Arlo Looking Cloud?
A. I have met Arlo once that I can remember.
Q. You see him in the courtroom today?
Q. Would you point out where he is seated, please?
A. Sitting right there. (Indicating).
MR. McMAHON: May the record reflect he pointed to
the defendant. Your Honor?
THE COURT: It may.
BY MR. McMAHON:
Q. Have you ever had an occasion to visit with Mr. Looking
Cloud about Anna Mae's death?
A. One time, in 1988.
Q. Where was that at?
A. My band, we were on tour with a band called Midnight
Oil, and we played in Denver, and I saw him then after the
JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
A. Troy Lynn brought him, Troy Lynn had said to me that
Arlo wanted to talk with me.
Q. Troy Lynn Yellow Wood?
A. Yes. So she brought Arlo to where I was at.
Q. And where were you at when you saw Mr. Looking Cloud?
A. I think it was in my hotel room in Denver.
Q. Who was present during this conversation?
A. Myself, Troy Lynn and Arlo.
Q. Did Mr. Looking Cloud talk to you about what had
happened to Anna Mae?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What do you remember about him telling you what had
happened to her?
A. Well, first, I mean I was surprised that he was coming
to talk to me about this.
Q. You didn't know him at that time?
A. No, I may have met him. But, no, I didn't know him. So
he told me that he and John Boy and Theda, they had taken her
from Troy Lynn's house in Denver, and that they brought her to
a place in Rapid City, they took her to one house, one place,
and then from there to an empty apartment or house, and that
this house belonged to Thelma Rios, and that they kept Anna
Mae there for maybe a day. And that while she was there that
JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
John Boy and himself, between them, somebody always stayed
with her, and she was kept in that house not free to leave.
Q. Did he ever mention to you why Anna Mae had been taken
to South Dakota?
A. To be questioned.
Q. About what?
A. Being an informant.
Q. Did he tell you where they went once they left Rapid
A. The best I can remember what he said was that they were
in Rapid City maybe 24 hours, a day or so, something along
that time line, and then they took her to a house near the
Indian hospital in Rosebud.
Q. Did he say what happened at that house in Rosebud?
A. During this whole process that Anna Mae was trying to
get them to let her go, talking to them about letting her go,
and that she was very afraid. Then they took her, so then
when they went to this house near the Indian hospital, then
Arlo stayed in the car with Anna Mae and John Boy and Theda
went in the house.
Q. Did he say if Anna Mae and he had any type of a
A. Is that she was just asking them to let her go. She
wanted to be free, she was afraid, you know, and basically it
conversation. She is saying to him she wants to, would he let
Q. Did he ever mention to you that they had also stopped in
A. I don't remember him telling me that.
Q. He didn't ever mention to you that they stopped at a
house in Allen?
A. I don't, I truly don't remember it. I mean he may have
said it, but I don't remember that.
Q. So what did he tell you happened once they left the
house in Rosebud?
A. Well, John Boy and Theda came out of the house, and that
they got in the car and they basically drove up to the place
near Wanblee where she was shot.
Q. Did he tell you what happened at the site where she was
A. That they had, that he and John Boy and Anna Mae got out
of the car, and that they walked Anna Mae to a spot where she
was shot, and in the course of this walk that Anna Mae was
crying, praying, talking about her daughters. She didn't want
to lose her daughters, and what were they going to do, please
let her go, and things of that nature, and then she knelt,
that John Boy had her kneel down, and John Boy shot her in the
back of the head.
THE COURT: Cross exam.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RENSCH:
Q. Morning, sir. Or almost afternoon I guess it is. In
this conversation that you had with Arlo, what year was that?
Q. Who else was present during that conversation?
A. Troy Lynn.
Q. Was she adding to the conversation at all?
Q. Was she talking at the time?
A. She may have been, but I don't really remember that.
Q. You had spoken to Troy Lynn prior to meeting with Arlo,
had you not?
Q. And she had told you what she thought Arlo would say to
you, isn't that correct?
A. No, that's not correct.
Q. Did she tell you anything about?
A. She said he wanted to talk to me, that he wanted to talk
to me, but it was about what happened with Anna Mae, it was in
relationship to Anna Mae.
Q. Where did this conversation take place with Arlo?
A. In a hotel room.
Q. In a hotel room?
Q. Is there any possibility it took place in a car?
A. We may have went down to the car from there, but
basically because they came to my room.
Q. First of all, you didn't write any notes of this or
anything like that, did you, sir?
Q. I suppose that through the years because you knew
Ms. Pictou-Aquash that if something comes out on this subject
you would read it if you could?
A. I would what?
Q. Read something that comes out on this subject, isn't
A. Well, maybe, because it depends on who is writing it,
because a lot of people write things that have no basis to
Q. It seems to me that at some point in this case you have
made a statement to somebody to the effect that it is kind of
hard to keep it all straight, what you have read and what you
have heard and things like that. You recall anything like
A. Yes, I do, and it was in regard to a specific statement.
Q. Now when we are talking about then what Arlo is telling
you in this vehicle, or in the hotel room, as the case may be?
A. In the course of the evening.
today, specifically recall him telling you names of people in
Rapid City, or could you have filled that information in?
A. He told me the names, because I did not -- he told me
those names, there is no mistake about this.
Q. There is no mistake about that?
A. No mistake about this.
Q. And this conversation occurred I think we have
established was it '88?
A. In 1988.
Q. 1988, okay. Did he ever say anything to you about
wanting Ms. Pictou-Aquash to die?
A. No. I mean no, he didn't say that. The impression I
got was that he didn't know what the end result was going to
be. That I will say that, but it happened, and he played his
Q. When you were speaking to him, was it clear to you that
the fact that she was killed was a surprise to him?
A. I got the impression, I don't know about surprise, but
up until the time they left that house. See after they left
that house, I don't know about surprises any more, alright,
because somebody said to do this, but up until the time they
went to that house I don't think he expected that she would be
Q. You just said at that house somebody said to do this?
Q. What are you referring to?
A. Well, John Boy and Arlo and Theda, they weren't decision
makers. I mean they couldn't give this kind. It wasn't their
idea to go down there and pick her up, it wasn't their idea.
They did what they were told.
Q. You have told us what Arlo told you already, and I don't
recall you saying anything about him saying that someone
issued an order or said anything at that house. Do you recall
him saying that anybody at that house said anything about
Ms. Pictou-Aquash being killed?
A. John Boy and Theda went in that house, and when they
came out it was with the instructions to kill her.
Q. That's what Arlo told you?
A. I almost say it verbatim in those exact words, but that
was the impression of what I got out of what he told me.
Q. I am not trying to nitpick with you.
A. I understand.
Q. I nitpick with you, but it is very, very important. I
want to know if you heard from Arlo's mouth something about
him knowing that she was going to be killed in advance of her
death? Did you hear anything in that regard?
A. Up until the time they went to that house, my opinion he
didn't know she was going to be killed, but when they left
that house they knew.
A. They took her out and shot her. Somewhere in there, so
I mean --
Q. Well, we are here about what Arlo said, and did Arlo
tell you that he knew, or are you making that assumption?
A. I am very careful about making an assumption on this.
It is just that when John Boy and Theda came out of that
house, because Theda took Anna Mae's jewelry, took some of her
Q. So as you are talking to us now you remember Arlo saying
something about Theda taking Anna Mae's jewelry?
A. Somewhere in the course of that, yes.
Q. Is that something that you could have read, sir?
A. No. Certain things I remember because I had not heard
them before. I can't remember the point that you are going
to, but there was something I had been asked, and I wasn't
sure if I had read that part.
Q. Mr. McMahon had asked you what Arlo had said, and I
don't recall you saying anything about jewelry. Maybe I
A. Maybe I forgot to say it to him, but the deal is --
Q. Because you and I have had a telephone conversation?
A. Yes, we have.
Q. Didn't you say to me that this is a situation of Arlo
being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Q. Didn't you say to me that from everything Arlo told you
that this was a complete surprise on his part?
A. Something to that effect.
Q. I guess I am asking you if you would say something to
the effect that from what Arlo told you, this was a complete
surprise on his part, why the change?
A. I don't think I am changing. See, because it all hinges
at that house, alright, because I think there was a complete
surprise to him that that decision had been made.
Q. Well, do you know at what point he became aware of the
decision, did he tell you?
A. When he got out of that car and started walking to where
she was killed.
Q. What did he say about that?
A. They got out of the car, and they had the gun and they
walked to the thing. So now I am making an assumption, okay,
I am making an assumption he knew by then that something was
going to happen.
Q. You use the word they, it includes a lot of people?
A. John Boy and Arlo got out of that car with Anna Mae and
walked her to that spot.
Q. Arlo never said he had the gun, did he?
A. No, he never said he had the gun.
Q. He didn't know that John Boy had the gun, would you
A. No, I can't agree or disagree with that.
Q. You don't know?
Q. And that John Boy shot her, and that was a surprise to
Arlo that she would be shot?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did he say that to you?
A. Did he say that it was a surprise to him.
Q. It was a surprise when she was killed?
A. No, he didn't use those words.
Q. What words did he use that led you to say to me that
something to the effect this was a surprise to him?
A. He was picking Anna Mae up in Denver and taking her to
the house, wherever she was held here in Rapid and then taking
her to the house in Rosebud, alright. I had the feeling that
none of those three that took her up to that point really knew
what the outcome was going to be, because somebody was telling
them what to do. But when they left that house, somebody
amongst them knew what was going to happen. So to me I would
say that the surprise, Arlo was surprised that this happened
to her, but it was after that visit to that house.
Q. You just said that you think that somebody knew what was
going to happen when they left that house, right, sir?
Somebody in that car?
Q. But Arlo didn't tell you that he knew what was going to
happen when they left that house, did he?
A. The best I remember what he said was that when John Boy
and Theda came out of that house, they took her where she was
shot, and then he and John Boy got out of the car, alright,
and walked her to where she was at, alright, and John Boy had
her kneel down and shot her in the back of the head. And if I
remember correctly, there was something about maybe a blanket
or something, but I may be confused about that.
Q. So you are telling us what he said, you are remembering,
you are visualizing him talking to you wherever it was you
were talking and trying to tell us also what he said?
A. I mean he said what he said to me, yes, he did.
Q. As you recounted all this you didn't say anything about
her begging for her life, or saying please don't shoot me, or
mentioning anything about her kids?
A. Say this again.
Q. As you just told us what you he said happened?
A. He told me about her begging for her life and her kid.
Q. Is your position he told you she was begging for her
life on the walk out to the ravine?
Q. And sir, you don't know whether she was begging when
Theda and John Boy went in to this house by the Indian
A. No, she was.
Q. You are telling us that he told you she was begging when
they went in to the house, is that right?
Q. And that when the other two of course went in the house
he would be in the car alone with her?
Q. I want to ask you if you, now you have spoken with an
individual about this matter and that was tape recorded, have
Q. You know an individual by the name of Neil Chapman?
Q. He interviewed you about this, did he not?
Q. Did you know he was taping it as he was interviewing
Q. Did you say this to him, and I am at page 8.
MR. McMAHON: Excuse me, Your Honor, I believe this
is improper impeachment, he can refresh his recollection?
THE COURT: True.
MR. RENSCH: Can we approach for a moment, please?
THE COURT: You may.
( Bench Conference)
MR. RENSCH: This is a prior inconsistency, it need
not be under oath. I can ask him if he was asked the question
and he denies it, then he has access to the document. I am
looking at a prior inconsistent statement in this interview
and it's my intent to ask him if he made the statement.
THE COURT: You haven't asked him yet.
MR. RENSCH: No, I haven't, I think it's my choice
if I want to let him refresh his recollection or ask him
THE COURT: You were referring to the pages were you
impeaching him before you asked the question.
MR. RENSCH: I was just doing that so counsel would
know where I was at. Do you want me to do some other
procedure, I think I can, but I think I am allowed to say did
you say this, and if he didn't, he can deny it, and it would
be my option to bring in the person who made the statement to
tie it up. I don't think I have to throw it in front of him
to ask him the question.
THE COURT: You haven't asked the question yet, I
think that's the point.
MR. RENSCH: Do you want me to put it in front of
THE COURT: What you do is up to you, but you
haven't asked a predicate question yet that you have either to