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PAGES 356 to 370

 

 

PAGE 356

 

Q. Did you ever have an occasion to help Mr. Looking Cloud

make contact with Anna Maes daughters?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When was that?

A. I believe it was within the past couple of years. I

know it was since -- I got to say within the past couple of

years the best I could say.

Q. What was your involvement in that?

A. My interest was that these two girls who were children

at the time had their mother taken from them without any

knowledge or understanding, and I felt that that was so wrong,

that I felt that anybody who had any knowledge about what

happened to their mother was obligated to inform them of that,

and so I coordinated the conversation between Arlo and the

girls.

Q. Did you listen in on the conversation?

A. No, I did not.

Q. At any time during your conversations with Mr. Looking

Cloud did he ever indicate to you when they received

instructions as to killing Anna Mae?

A. No.

MR. McMAHON: Thank you, that's all I have.

THE COURT: Cross examine.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RENSCH:

Q. How old are you, sir?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 357


A. I am sorry?

Q. How old are you?

A. I am 49 years old.

Q. What is your job?

A. I am an educational consultant.

Q. What's that?

A. I teach classes in public schools.

Q. Have you taught any in the last month?

A. Not in the last month.

Q. When is the last class you taught in public school?

A. About a month and a half ago.

Q. Where was that?

A. In Denver.

Q. What school?

A. I can't divulge.

Q. You can't divulge the school you taught a class at?

A. No, sir, I cannot, not unless it's particularly in

reference to the case here.

Q. Alright. You say that you lived between Denver and Iowa

from 1972 to 1976, is that correct?

A. Between 1972 to 1976 I lived in Denver and Iowa and

South Dakota, yes.

Q. When did you live in Iowa?

A. I lived in Iowa different periods. 1970, 1971, 1973,

and 1974.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 358


Q. When did you live in South Dakota?

A. Oh, 1972, 1974, and 1975.

Q. What year were you born, sir?

A. 1954.

Q. You have told this jury that you basically grew up with

Arlo, is that right?

A. Basically.

Q. What does that mean to you, growing up with somebody?

A. You know them when you are growing up.

Q. When you say you grow up with someone, that means you

are with them, what else does it mean to you?

A. It means to me that we were growing up, we hung out

together, did things together.

Q. You lived in the same place?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever live in the same place as Arlo?

A. On a few different occasions.

Q. Where at?

A. At Troy Lynn's.

Q. You lived at Troy Lynn's?

A. Yes, I lived at Troy Lynn's.

Q. How long did you live there?

A. Boy, I couldn't say for sure how long.

Q. What years did you live there?

A. 1973, 1971, 1972, different periods.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 359


Q. You have told people and made statements about Arlo that

he is your brother, haven't you, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. You consider him a brother?

A. Yes.

Q. Here in the courtroom today?

A. Yes.

Q. There would be no reason at all for you to make anything

up about him, right?

A. Nope.

Q. Because he is your brother and you wouldn't want to do

anything to hurt your brother, right?

A. No, I wouldn't want to do anything to hurt my brother.

Q. How many times did you speak with him about

Ms. Pictou-Aquash?

A. I would say at least a half a dozen, maybe more.

Q. Do you distinctly remember every conversation you had

with him?

A. Not enough to be able to separate them and itemize them.

Q. You have also said that he has consistently told you

what happened through the years, haven't you, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. What does the word consistently mean to you?

A. I could quote Webster's definition, but I believe it

should mean the same thing to both of us, it happens often.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 360


Q. Go ahead and quote whatever you would like, tell us what

consistently means?

A. It happens often, it stays the --

Q. It agrees with the same?

A. It happens often the same.

Q. In your quote of Webster's dictionary it means stays the

same, doesn't it?

A. I said I could quote the Webster's dictionary.

Q. Well, quote it then?

A. I don't. Consistent, you had asked me for a definition

of the word consistency.

Q. I asked you for the word consistency. You have said to

people that Arlo Looking Cloud consistently told you the same

thing over the years, have you not, sir?

A. Yes.

Q. If you say that someone consistently tells you the same

thing over the years, that means their story isn't changing,

doesn't it?

A. No.

Q. It doesn't. Tell us how someone can consistently say to

you the same thing over the years and change their story?

A. Well, we have a conversation about the same subject that

happens more than once, we consistently have the same types of

questions, same types of inquiries, we focus on the same

object, but the answers are often different.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 361


Q. How can someone consistently say the same thing to you

while saying something different?

A. Because all the different answers are consistently the

same.

Q. All the different answers are consistently the same.

That is what you are telling this jury?

A. Yes.

Q. You don't have a horse in this race, do you?

A. I can't even comment to that.

Q. You don't care how it turns out?

A. It went over my head.

Q. You don't care how this case turns out, do you?

A. I am not sure, is that a question, or an assertion?

Q. I am asking you, do you care how this case turns out?

A. Okay, now that's a question.

Q. Thank you?

A. I care, yes.

Q. You don't like the American Indian Movement, do you,

sir?

A. I couldn't say that.

Q. You despise the leadership of the American Indian

Movement, don't you, sir?

A. I couldn't say that either.

Q. Well, you have told other people that you don't like the

leaders, have you not?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 362


A. Yes.

Q. Who, do you have a blood brother, someone who is a blood

brother to you?

A. I have several blood brothers.

Q. Who are your blood brothers, who are brothers that are

brothers in the sense you come from the same mother and

father?

A. I don't know that.

Q. Who are your brothers?

A. Who are my brothers? I have to tell you that I could

sit here and name my brothers, but I am trying to understand

what the value it has to this case.

Q. Well, you your understanding of the value it has to this

case, sir, is not an answer to the question. Do you have any

brothers that have the same last name as you?

A. Yes.

Q. Who are they?

A. Aaron, Don, Roy, Bruce,

Q. Two Elk, is that right?

A. No.

Q. Do you have a brother who has the same last name as you':

A. Aaron Two Elk.

Q. Aaron Two Elk. You are angry with the American Indian

Movement because he was shut out of the American Indian

Movement for a period of time, would you agree, sir?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 363


A. No.

Q. You didn't try to intercede on his behalf and try to

make amends between Aaron and the American Indian Movement?

A. No.

Q. The truth of the matter is, sir, you would do anything

so that the American Indian Movement looks bad because you

hate it, would you agree?

A. No.

Q. Well, are you a member of it presently?

A. No.

Q. When did you quit being a member?

A. I stopped being an active member in the American Indian

Movement, Incorporated in about 1975.

Q. About 1975? What did you stop for?

A. Because I didn't feel like being used any more.

Q. When you think back on the telephone call that Arlo made

where he talked to you, can you tell us what he told you

happened?

A. I am sorry, again?

Q. Think to the first time you spoke to Arlo about the Anna

Mae Pictou-Aquash matter, do you know when that was?

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. I believe it had to be in the summer or the fall of

1994.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 364


Q. How did he contact you?

A. He called me by telephone.

Q. What did he say to you?

A. He wanted to know what I thought he should do.

Q. Did you ask him if he had killed anyone?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he say to you?

A. He said no, he hadn't.

Q. And he never told you that he helped kill anyone at that

point, did he?

A. Well, he did tell me that.

Q. He did tell you. What did he say to you about that?

A. He said that he was involved in the case, and he wanted

to know what he should do if he was involved in the case and

they were holding him. And so I told him he needed to tell

them as much as he could about the truth of his involvement.

Q. I thought you said he helped with her killing?

A. You asked me did he ever tell me that, and I said yes.

Involvement in the case is to me helping with her killing.

You may have a different interpretation.

Q. I think we do. The first time he spoke to you, didn't

you ask him if he had -- well, let's just get to your grand

jury testimony. We will deal with it that way. You asked him

did you commit the murder, and he said to you, no, did not, do

you agree?

JERRY J. MAY. RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, tt305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 365


A. I agree.

Q. What else did he tell you in that first phone call after

you asked him that question?

A. As I said, he asked me what I thought he should do,

because he was being held in reference to this case, and so I

told him that he needed to just tell them the truth about his

involvement.

Q. Did he say anything else to you during that phone call?

A. A lot of things.

Q. Please tell us what else?

A. I couldn't even begin to.

Q. Why not?

A. There was a pretty extensive conversation.

Q. You can't remember?

A. Not all the particulars.

Q. What else do you remember?

A. What I remember is that he called me and he wanted to

know what to do.

Q. And that he told you that he didn't kill anyone?

A. He told me he didn't kill Anna Mae, and that he was

involved and he wanted to know what to do.

Q. After that telephone call he is seeking basically legal

advice from you, is that what you are telling us?

A. No, why would he seek legal advice from me, I am not a

lawyer.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 366


Q. I think you are right there?

A. Doesn't make any sense.

MR. McMAHON: Your Honor, I ask that counsel be

instructed to quit badgering the witness and just ask

questions.

THE COURT: This is cross examination. Ask your

next question.

BY MR. RENSCH:

Q. After that telephone call how many person-to-person

conversations did you have with Mr. Looking Cloud about Anna

Mae Aquash's death?

A. I would say at least a half a dozen, maybe more.

Q. Where was the first one?

A. At his aunt's house.

Q. Who was present?

A. Arlo and I.

Q. Was his aunt there?

A. She was inside.

Q. When the prosecutor asked you who was present, you just

said you and Arlo were there, didn't you?

A. We were outside, Arlo and I. She was not present,

that's what I said.

Q. Let me ask you this. When the prosecutor asked you

where this took place, you said at his aunt's house, didn't

you?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 367


A. Yes. I guess I could have gotten a little more

specific. We were outside and she was inside. Does that

help?

Q. What did he say and what did you say?

A. You know, it was a pretty long conversation, pretty

involved, a lot of discussion. I don't, I couldn't say.

Q. You don't remember what he said, and you don't know what

you said during that first person-to-person conversation about

this death, is that right?

A. I repeat, I couldn't say.

Q. Tell me about the second conversation that you had that

was after this first one, where did that take place?

A. I couldn't even say.

Q. Who was present?

A. Arlo and I.

Q. Where did it happen?

A. I am sorry?

Q. Where did it happen?

A. Is that the same as where was it present, where did it

take place, is that the same question?

Q. It is?

A. I couldn't even say.

Q. Don't remember, what did you say and what did he say?

A. I didn't say I couldn't remember, I said I couldn't even

say.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 368


Q. What does that mean to you, sir?

A. What it means is we had many conversations over a long

period of time. I didn't log them or document them in writing

as such as an incident report. That many of these

conversations took place possibly when we were driving,

possibly when we were at my house, possibly when we ran in to

each other, and so because of the nature of it there are no

particulars on conversation one, conversation two,

conversation three, et cetera.

Q. I asked you if you knew where the second conversation

took place, you said that you couldn't say, and my question to

you is do you remember, yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did it take place then the second conversation?

A. In my car.

Q. It did. Now it's in your car. Why didn't you tell us

it was in your car when I first asked you the question?

A. Well, because you wanted to know where was the second

conversation, and I had to think about it, where was the

second conversation.

Q. So now you remember the second conversation was in your

car, is that right?

A. Well, I will tell you that the second conversation was

in my car, if that's what you want to hear.

Q. You know, sir, I don't think we are in this courtroom to

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 369


try to get just what we want to hear. My question to you is

simple. Did the second conversation take place in the car,

yes or no?

A. The second conversation took place in my car.

Q. And you remember that?

A. I remember having a conversation in my car.

Q. When was it?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Where was the car?

A. Driving down the street in Denver.

Q. Where at?

A. Just driving down the street, you know.

Q. You are making it up as you go, aren't you, sir?

A. Well, okay, you know, let me explain this if I will.

Q. My question to you? You are making this up as you go,

aren't you, sir, yes or no?

A. No.

Q. Where was the third conversation?

A. The first conversation took place outside his aunt's

house.

Q. I am asking where the third conversation was, sir?

A. The third conversation, I have to tell you I don't

recall.

Q. In that conversation what did he say and what did you

say?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 370


A. In which conversation?

Q. The third one?

A. The third one?

Q. Yes?

A. We visited some of the same questions, and we disclosed

some of the same areas in terms of the events that took place.

Q. So what did he say and what did you say?

A. I would ask him questions about the location, the time,

the people that were there, and he would respond to the

questions.

Q. I know you are telling us that you would ask him

questions and that he would respond. But I would ask you to

listen closely to what I am asking. What did he say and what

did you say?

A. He said if anybody wanted to know what happened to Anna

Mae and why, then they needed to talk to the leadership in the

American Indian Movement. And I said I agree. And that was

what conversation, sir.

Q. The third one, where did that take place?

A. Driving in Denver in my car.

Q. I thought the second one was driving?

A. No, the third one was driving.

Q. Where was the second one?

A. Driving.

Q. They are all driving, aren't they?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

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