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PAGES 341 to 355

 

 

PAGE 341

 

A. Theda was that type of person.

Q. How so?

A. They didn't want me to go in the bedroom with them, they

just took Dick.

Q. I am talking how is she a pushy person?

A. Just takes control of the situation.

Q. About that time how old did she appear to be, thirties,

forties, fifties?

A. Probably forties, fifties. Close to fifty maybe.

Q. She was older than the others that were with her?

A. Right, much older.

Q. Was there a phone at your residence in '75?

A. Yes, we had a phone.

Q. Did Ms. Pictou-Aquash ask to use your phone?

A. No, she didn't.

Q. If she would have asked, would you have let her?

A. I think I would have.

Q. So there was a period of time when you were out in your

living room or kitchen area alone with Ms. Pictou-Aquash?

A. Right.

Q. About how long would you say that was?

A. Probably five minutes maybe.

Q. Cars outside the house?

A. You know, I didn't look out.

Q. Did you folks have a car then?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 342


A. Yes, we did.

Q. Did the people who came in give you any indication that

they had walked?

A. No, they didn't.

Q. And no one was standing guard over Ms. Pictou-Aquash as

she was with you?

A. No, they weren't.

Q. You never dreamed that when she left that house anything

bad would happen to her, did you?

A. No, I didn't, sir.

Q. If you would have thought something bad was going to

happen, would you have tried to help her?

A. I think I would have.

MR. RENSCH: Thank you.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. You said you weren't allowed to go back in the bedroom

when they were there?

A. Well, they said stay out here, they took Dick back

there.

Q. Do you know, did your husband Dick give them anything

when they were back in that bedroom?

A. I don't think he did.

Q. Did he keep any guns in that bedroom?

A. No. At the time he had, he had gotten in trouble and

wasn't allowed to have any kind of guns. He was on release

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 343


before his trial.

MR. RENSCH: Okay -- well --

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. Had he had guns in the past?

A. We had a rifle, hunting rifles, but he had taken

everything over to his dad's, mother and dad's place.

MR. MANDEL: Nothing further, Your Honor.

MR. RENSCH: No questions.

THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down. Now we

will take our morning recess. Remember what I told you

before, don't talk to each other about the case, keep an open

mind until you have heard all of the evidence. We will be in

recess for fifteen minutes.

(Recess at 10:30 until 10:45).

THE COURT: Call your next witness.

MR. McMAHON: Richard Two Elk.

RICHARD TWO ELK,

called as a witness, being first duly sworn, testified and

said as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. State your name, please?

A. My name is Richard Two Elk.

Q. Where do you live?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, tt305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 344


A. I live in Denver, Colorado.

Q. How long have you lived there?

A. I have lived there off and on since about 1959.

Q. How old are you?

A. I am 49 years old.

Q. Where were you born?

A. I was born in Rapid City.

Q. Where did you grow up?

A. All over the country.

Q. Did you spend any time on any of the reservations in

South Dakota?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. During what years would that have been?

A. From my birth to the present I have spent a lot of time

on Pine Ridge.

Q. Did you graduate from high school?

A. No.

Q. Did you spend any time in the military?

A. Yes.

Q. When were you in the military?

A. I was in the military from 1983 to 1987.

Q. What did you do prior to being in the military?

A. Prior to being in the military I was a Native American

educator and journalist.

Q. What is your present occupation?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 345


A. My present occupation is educational consultant.

Q. What do you do as an educational consultant?

A. I do presentations in public schools, I conduct medical

training and orienteering.

Q. Were you a member of AIM?

A. I was a member of AIM.

Q. During approximately what years were you a member of the

AIM organization?

A. From approximately 1970 to about 1975, '76.

Q. Where were you living during those years?

A. I lived in Denver and in Iowa.

Q. Do you know Mr. Arlo Looking Cloud?

A. Yes.

Q. You see him here in the courtroom?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you identify him, please?

A. He is sitting right over there in that chair.

MR. McMAHON: May the record reflect he identified

the defendant?

THE COURT: It may.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. How do you know Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. We grew up together.

Q. What do you mean you grew up together, can you explain

that?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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A. When we were young people and we were growing up we

spent a lot of time hanging around and just raising cain

together.

Q. Did you have any kind of special relationship with each

other?

A. I think special in that Arlo's father and my mother had

a friendship, and a result we ended up being closer than most.

I considered my special relationship with Arlo because I,

unlike other people, I didn't have any fear of him.

Q. You are not a blood relative of his, though, are you?

A. No, I am not.

Q. During what years as far as your age were you and Arlo

running around together?

A. Probably from the early to mid teens.

Q. Then how long did you continue to keep each other's

company?

A. To the present.

Q. So you have known him for a long time?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you spend a lot of time together?

A. Not an excessive amount of time. Enough to where we

maintained our relationship over the years.

Q. Have you spent time with him in Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Mr. Looking Cloud involved in the AIM movement?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 347


A. Yes.

Q. Would it have been at the same time you were?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go to AIM activities together?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Could you describe what type of involvement the two of

you had?

A. Well, if there was an activity going on that was

sponsored by the American Indian Movement such as a

demonstration or a rally, or other sort of event, we would

often go there and provide support. We would be present. So

mostly just support for different activities that AIM did.

Q. Were you living in Denver during your AIM involvement

years?

A. I lived in Denver and in Iowa.

Q. How about Mr. Looking Cloud, where was he living then?

A. Denver and South Dakota and --

Q. Were the two of you active in any particular chapter of

AIM?

A. The Denver chapter.

Q. Do you know a person by the name of John Graham?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know him?

A. He was a friend of both Arlo and I.

Q. When was that?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 348


A. In 1974 and "75 and '76.

Q. So for three years?

A. Around about that, it may have been '75 and '76.

Q. Was he a friend of yours while you were in Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he also involved in AIM activities?

A. Yes.

Q. Did the three of you ever do anything together?

A. Well, we partied together, we made chokers together and

would go out and sell those.

Q. What do you mean chokers?

A. They hair pipe chokers and Indian crafts, if you will.

So we would go and would sell those, and just stuff like that.

Q. Did the three of you, yourself, Mr. Looking Cloud and

Mr. John Graham, do these things together?

A. Often.

Q. Often?

A. Not all the time, but often.

Q. You said that would have been in '74, '75 and '76?

A. I would have to say '75 and '76 to be certain.

Q. '75 and '76. Did you, the three of you hang around

together prior to December of 1975?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you continue to hang around together after December

of 1975?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 349


A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever had an occasion to talk with Mr. Looking

Cloud about Anna Mae Aquash's murder?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. When was the first time you visited with him about that?

A. The first time that I visited with Arlo about the murder

of Anna Mae Aquash is when he called me from the federal

holding in 1994.

Q. You mean he was in jail?

A. Yes.

Q. And he called you from jail?

A. Yes.

Q. What did he say to you?

A. He explained to me that he was being held in reference

to the Anna Mae investigation. He wanted to know if I could

help him, because I had a military background and I had a good

sense of the institutional processes. So he asked me for

advice and what I thought should be done.

Q. What did you tell him?

A. I asked him if he had, was responsible for killing Anna

Mae? And he said no. And so then I told him that if he

needed to, then he should tell them the truth about as much as

he could about his involvement, and then maybe he would get

out of jail.

Q. Did he get out of jail?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 350


A. He did.

Q. Did the two of you have an occasion to visit about this

again?

A. Yes.

Q. When would that have been?

A. Well, we visited several times since he got out of jail

to the present, since he was incarcerated last.

Q. When would have the first have been after he got out of

jail?

A. I would say we didn't seriously start to explore the

depths of it until mid to late 1990's, '96 and '97.

Q. '96 and '97, somewhere in there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When was the last time you visited with Mr. Looking

Cloud, about when this would have been?

A. About two weeks prior to his arrest.

Q. Let's start with your -- well, first of all, how many

visits do you think you have had with him about this matter?

A. I would say at least a half a dozen, if not more.

Q. Let's start with the early visits. Tell me, if you

would, what he told you about what happened to Anna Mae?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, foundation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. When did you have this first visit then?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

 

PAGE 351

 

A. Telephonic, or in person?

Q. After that telephone visit?

A. After he was released, when he was available, probably a

year '95 I would say.

Q. Who was present during this visit?

A. Just Arlo and I.

Q. Where did that visit take place?

A. At his aunt's house.

Q. Where is that?

A. In Denver.

Q. Just the two of you were present?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ask him about what had happened to Anna Mae

Aquash?

A. Yes. I asked him about more of the particulars and the

details of what I had been told initially.

Q. Did the two of you then have a conversation about it?

A. Yes.

Q. Now at that time did you talk at all about him being at

Yellow Wood's?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What did he tell you about that?

A. He told me was, that they were at Troy Lynn's when they

received a call that said that they had to go to South Dakota.

Q. You say they received a call, did he get any more

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877


 

PAGE 352

 

specific than that?

A. No.

Q. Did he say why they had to go to South Dakota?

A. They had to go to South Dakota and take Anna Mae up

there to respond to charges that she was an informer.

Q. Did he tell you who was going to take her up there?

A. He told me that he and John Boy and Theda were going to

take her up there.

Q. Did he tell you who made that telephone call?

A. No.

Q. Did he tell you where they went in South Dakota?

A. Just to Rapid City.

Q. Did he tell you what happened in Rapid City?

A. What he told me was that in Rapid City they went to the

interrogation, they were present for the interrogation, and

they wanted to try to help Anna Mae respond to the charges

effectively.

Q. So he told you that he actually was trying to help Anna

Mae respond to the charges?

A. That was what he had told me, that was my understanding

of it.

Q. Was Mr. Graham helping also?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, leading, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. McMAHON:

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

 

PAGE 353


Q. Was anyone else helping?

A. I am sorry?

Q. Was anyone else helping Anna Mae respond to the charges?

A. No.

Q. Did he tell you where they were at in Rapid City?

A. No.

Q. Did he mention where they went when they left Rapid

City?

A. What he told me was after they left Rapid City they went

out looking for somewhere to go to, and they went to Rosebud

and Pine Ridge, and that was the best that I knew, driving

around.

Q. Did he tell you who made that trip to Rosebud and Pine

Ridge?

A. He told me that there was he and John Boy.

Q. Was Theda Clark with them?

A. Not that he said.

Q. Did he tell you what they did on Rosebud or Pine Ridge?

A. What he told me was that they went to Pine Ridge and

they had, they were trying to find somewhere to go, and they

stopped to, just to stop, and that's when the rest of the

events started to happen.

Q. Did he tell you exactly where they had stopped?

A. No.

Q. What did he tell you happened when they stopped?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 354


A. That they got out of the vehicle and --

Q. Let me stop you there a minute. You said they got out

of the vehicle, who are you talking about?

A. John Boy and Arlo and Anna Mae.

Q. Go ahead then?

A. That they had gotten out of the vehicle and they were

going to go off the side of the road, and Arlo gave the gun to

John Boy and nodded to him, and John Boy went off with Anna

Mae.

Q. You said that Arlo gave the gun to John Boy?

A. That's what he told me.

Q. When they were out at the site where Anna Mae was

killed?

A. Yes.

Q. And then he told you what happened after that?

A. What he told me was that he gave the gun to John Boy,

and John Boy went off with Anna Mae, and that she had started

to pray or to begin the process for prayer when John Boy just

put the gun to her head and pulled the trigger.

Q. You said you had a series of other conversations with

Mr. Looking Cloud about this event, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you have those conversations?

A. Different places. His aunt's house, my house, wherever

we ran in to each other.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 355


Q. During those other conversations did his, did he relate

the story to you again?

A. I would have him review some of the particulars to

measure them against what I had been told previously so that I

could get a better sense of what I was being told, and so we

did, we did visit the same story on several occasions.

Q. Did he ever change any portion of his story?

A. It would change often.

Q. You think of any examples as to how it changed?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, foundation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. The changes in the story would have to do with

particulars of, say for example, trying to think of a

particular one. Whether they went to Rosebud or not, as an

example.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Did Mr. Looking Cloud ever claim to you that he didn't

know this was going to happen?

A. He also, he had told me that, yes.

Q. Was that before or after he told you that he was the one

that actually handed the gun to John Boy?

A. It was, well, both before and after. And on one

occasion he would tell me that he didn't know what was going

to happen until it happened, on another occasion he would tell

me otherwise.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

Pages 356 ~ 370 >>