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PAGE 311

 

once when I came down into the kitchen area she was in there

getting a cup of coffee.

Q. Can you tell us what you observed about her at that

time?

A. Since the last time I had seen her she had cut her hair

and there were tears in her eyes, she had been crying.

Q. Did she appear distraught?

A. She appeared very unhappy.

Q. Did you have a conversation with her?

A. Yes, I greeted her, and we exchanged sort of greetings.

And then I said to her that it, as strange as it might seem,

that she really, that people in Oglala really missed her and

that I did, and that strange as it might seem, that Oglala

could be a really safe place for her to stay. And she said

well, I don't think I will get to, or I don't think I will,

something to that effect.

Q. What happened then?

A. We talked maybe another less than a minute probably, and

she said, well, I have to go back in there now, and went back

to that front room.

Q. Did you hear anything of the conversation that was going

on in there?

A. No. I could hear voices, but I didn't hear any of the

conversation.

Q. Did you see her leave the WKLDOC house?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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A. No.

Q. When did you leave?

A. It was after dark in December, must have been 5:00 or

5:30 that we left.

Q. What did you do next?

A. I got in the car with Ted Means, Clyde Bellecourt, Web

Poor Bear was there, and another man I didn't know and still

don't know who he was, and we were on our way to Sioux Falls,

but we stopped in Rosebud on the way at Bill Means' house.

Q. Can you just point, stand up and point if you would to

where Thelma's apartment was on this roughly?

A. It is this apartment complex, and this is reversed from

the way it looks, but it was over in here.

Q. Can you point about where the WKLDOC office was on here?

I told you Allen Street was about there, would that help you?

A. Yes. It was back in the second block off of Main. This

is before.

Q. Before the flood.

A. Right in here. (Indicating).

Q. The lower left-hand corner of Exhibit 38?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Does that photograph show Anna Mae about as

she looked on that day?

A. Yes.

Q. She had her hair cut short?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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A. Yes.

THE COURT: That's Exhibit what, counsel?

MR. MANDEL: Exhibit 27, Your Honor.

BY MR. MANDEL:

Q. After leaving the -- first of all, when you left the

WKLDOC office, did a ride arrive for you, or how did that take

place?

A. I was upstairs and somebody just yelled Candy, we are

ready, and I came down. And about that time all these people

came out of that front room.

Q. Who did you leave with?

A. With Clyde Bellecourt, Ted Means, Web Poor Bear and a

guy I didn't know.

Q. When they came out of that front room, just so I

understand, first of all did Anna Mae come out at that time?

A. I didn't see her then.

Q. Laurelie Decora?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you say Madonna Gilbert?

A. Yes.

Q. Bruce Ellison?

A. Yes.

Q. Thelma Rios?

A. Yes.

Q. Anybody else?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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A. Did you say Clyde?

Q. Clyde Bellecourt?

A. I think that's all.

Q. So then you left with Clyde Bellecourt, Webster Poor

Bear and Ted Means you said?

A. Um-hum.

Q. I have to ask you to answer yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you say Ted Means was in the room too, or no?

A. He was in the group that came out when I came after I

got downstairs.

Q. And then where did you head to from the WKLDOC office?

A. We were on our way to Sioux Falls. We went through

Rosebud and stopped at Bill Means' house.

Q. Bill Means also known by the nickname Kill?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened when you got to his house?

A. Everybody got out. Nobody said anything to me about

coming in, so I just stayed in the car and everybody else went

inside.

Q. Was there any discussion of what they were doing there?

A. No.

Q. Did you know why they went in there?

A. Pardon me?

Q. Did you know why they went in the house?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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A. No, I had no idea. I thought maybe they stopped to see

Kill.

Q. Was there any discussion of Anna Mae on the way from

Rapid City over to Rosebud?

A. No. I don't think anybody said a word the whole way.

Q. A long ride without saying anything.

A. Yes.

Q. How long were you there at Kill's place in Rosebud?

A. Well, I didn't time it, but it was probably more than

ten minutes, less than 45.

Q. Then what happened?

A. They came back out, Ted and Clyde came back out and we

drove on to Sioux Falls.

Q. You testified at Russ's trial there?

A. The next day, yes.

Q. That would have been a Friday?

A. Yes.

Q. After that when did you first hear of the death of Anna

Mae Pictou-Aquash?

A. I heard it on the radio after the official announcement

came out.

Q. Shortly after the body was found?

A. No, it was in February -- well, I guess it was maybe two

weeks between the time we heard that the body of an unknown

woman was found, and then about I don't know, ten days, two

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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weeks later they announced that it was Anna Mae.

Q. After you found out who it was, did you ever have any

discussions with anybody about it?

A. Well, with a great many people. It has been a constant

topic of conversation for 28 years. We have wondered exactly

what happened. As far as with any of the people mentioned in

my testimony, some time later, I don't remember whether it was

before or after we knew Anna Mae was killed, I asked Madonna

what became of her after they talked to her, and she said oh,

we just told her to get out of there.

Q. Madonna Gilbert?

A. Yes. Otherwise with other people, we have been trying

to figure this out for years.

Q. When you saw Anna Mae there at WKLDOC that day, were you

surprised to see her?

A. Yes. Well, not when I saw her, I was surprised, I had

heard earlier that morning --

MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Excuse me, what?

MR. RENSCH: Hearsay.

THE COURT: Not yet, but maybe. Overruled.

A. When I heard Bruce Ellison at Thelma's, I heard him

say

MR. RENSCH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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MR. MANDEL: Your Honor, can we approach on this for

a moment?

THE COURT: You may.

(Bench Conference).

MR. MANDEL: Frankly, my read on this is that this

is a coconspirator statement made in the furtherance of the

course of the conspiracy. I know we don't have a conspiracy

charge, that's not the rule of evidence, and in fact I point

out that Mr. Ellison, according to Mr. Rensch, said he is

going to exercise his 5th Amendment rights and won't testify

here, and we have had the same experience we had with the

grand jury regarding this on a number of occasions.

Mr. Rensch of course has received the transcript through

discovery, he's exercised his 5th Amendment right. He is a

coconspirator, it is a coconspirator's statement made in the

furtherance and course of the conspiracy. The statement is

simply that, you know, she's here, they have her here in town,

something like that.

THE COURT: I want to hear argument on this, because

this is news to me. The conspirators, because if so, the

rules of evidence change when you have a coconspirator, but I

want to hear argument.

MR. RENSCH: Also want to say I don't think I have

gotten Bruce Ellison's grand jury stuff. I mean I have broken

this big bunch of documents I have down in the file, and it's

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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possible for me to misplace something, but I have looked and I

don't think I have got that. It would be our position that he

is not a coconspirator. This would be an effort simply to get

this in front of the jury for the truth of the matter

asserted. As it is going to turn out she has already

testified that she saw Ms. Pictou-Aquash at the Wounded Knee

Legal Defense-Offense Committee house, and from that

standpoint I don't know if it would be worth injecting that

type of error in this record when it is, well, it could turn

out to be a non-issue. But to throw Bruce Ellison in to this

mix and now call him a coconspirator, and then allow that

information in on this new theory that we have now heard, we

have not heard before, I think would work an injustice and I

think it is in violation of the rules of evidence.

MR. MANDEL: I don't think it's in violation of the

rules of evidence, but frankly I don't want to hold things up,

so I am going to drop it for that reason.

THE COURT: Alright.

(End Bench Conference).

THE COURT: Ask your next question.

MR. MANDEL: Nothing further, Your Honor.

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RENSCH:

Q. Morning, Ma'am. If I ask you a question that seems

confusing, would you stop me so nobody gets confused?

A. Yes.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

 

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Q. What is your educational background?

A. I have a undergraduate degree in English from Auburn

University, and a Masters Degree from the University of South

Dakota in English.

Q. You didn't grow up around these parts, did you?

A. No.

Q. Where did you grow up?

A. Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Q. You were a reporter by trade, weren't you?

A. Yes.

Q. So do you think you have sharpened your ability to look

at events and kind of try to remember the details of them?

A. Yes.

Q. And you were trained as a reporter back in December of

1975, were you not?

A. I wasn't trained then, but that had been my career

through all those years.

Q. You had been a reporter by then?

A. Yes.

Q. And Ms. Pictou-Aquash was a friend of yours, wasn't she?

A. Yes.

Q. You offered to let her come and basically stay with you,

didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. You would have let her stay in your house?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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A. Yes.

Q. So before this day in December of 1975 you knew her
well?

A. Yes.

Q. You knew that she was subject to rumors of being an

informant, did you not?

A. Yes.

Q. You heard an individual by the name of John Stewart say

that she was an informant, isn't that true?

A. I think so, yes.

Q. Who was John Stewart?

A. He was a man who lived in Oglala. He was from Rosebud

originally, but he was living in Oglala, and he turned out to

be an FBI informer.

Q. Where were you when you heard this FBI informant say

that Ms. Pictou-Aquash was an informant?

A. Probably at a meeting in somebody's house in Oglala. It

wasn't just a personal conversation.

Q. When would that have been?

A. Probably around October, November. October probably, of

'75.

Q. So you have heard this FBI informant say this about

Ms. Pictou-Aquash before you saw her there at the law office

that day?

A. Yes.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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Q. Now that Wounded Knee Legal Offense-Defense Committee

house was a law office, wasn't it?

A. The lawyers probably did some of their legal work there,

yes.

Q. Did you have a position with that committee at that

time?

A. Well, as I said earlier, I was really with the Oglala

Legal Committee, and we were somewhat separate.

Q. What was your job?

A. By then I was actually the only member of the, who had

originally been with the Wounded Knee Committee in Oglala, and

I worked with Charlie Long Soldier and Jeanette on the Oglala

Legal Committee. We did some media work to try to get the

story out about what was happening on the reservation. We

tried to help people who were constantly being harassed by the

FBI, and we worked with people, many people were getting

arrested at that time, or threatened with arrest, and we tried

to help all of them that we could.

Q. But you actually worked under some people who were at

the Wounded Knee Legal Offense-Defense Committee house, didn't

you?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever do any work up there at all?

A. I was there occasionally, and may have done work while I

was there, but I wasn't there much.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, tt305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 322


Q. You showed up, or we looked at the pictures of the

house. Was the kitchen on the front of the house or the back

of the house?

A. You walked in to sort of the back porch sort of area and

then straight in to the kitchen.

Q. See the back of the house there on your screen?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that the area where you walked in to the kitchen?

A. Well, you went through a little room, sort of a, I don't

know, shed-like, before you were actually in to the kitchen.

Q. Take a look at that picture, is that the shed-like room

you are talking about?

A. Yes.

Q. How many feet would the kitchen be from that door right

there would you say; are we talking ten feet?

A. Oh, no. Probably like three or four steps.

Q. Three or four steps. So the kitchen was close to the

back door?

A. Yes.

Q. The back door was visible from the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. Was this little room a part of the kitchen? I mean was

the wall pushed out so that is a part of the kitchen?

A. No, it was more like a shed than a room.

Q. When you were in the kitchen, Ms. Pictou-Aquash was

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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getting some coffee, is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else was in the kitchen at that time?

A. Just the two of us.

Q. How many telephones were there in this house?

A. Gee, I don't know, probably a couple downstairs and

maybe one upstairs, maybe two upstairs.

Q. How long did you talk to Ms. Pictou-Aquash?

A. Probably not more than three or four minutes.

Q. Did anybody come in to the kitchen during the course of

your conversation?

A. No.

Q. You offered Ms. Pictou-Aquash a place to go, didn't you?

A. Um-hum.

Q. And at first you said that she said I don't think I will

get to, and then you said you weren't sure, but she may have

said I don't think I will?

A. It was just an indication that she didn't, she probably

couldn't do that, or wouldn't do that.

Q. I am trying to get to --

A. I don't remember the exact words 28 years later.

Q. Sure. It is possible she could have just simply said I

don't think I will?

A. Something like that.

Q. She didn't ask you to help her in any way, did she?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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A. No.

Q. She didn't ask you to call the police?

A. No.

Q. She didn't say to you that people were trying to kill

her?

A. No.

Q. And as you spoke to her in the kitchen that day, you

never dreamed that anything would happen that would result in

her death, would you agree?

A. That's right.

Q. As you came to the house that day, about what time did

you get there?

A. I would say it was late morning. I can't be any more

specific.

Q. And what rooms are in the upstairs of this house?

A. What rooms are in the upstairs?

Q. Yes.

A. Oh, I think there was maybe two. There was sort of a

landing area at that time that was set up with a desk and

phone and stuff, and then I believe there was at least one

other room behind it, and there might have been one more

smaller room.

Q. Incidentally, was there a phone in the kitchen?

A. No. Well, I don't think so, no.

Q. Now when you were upstairs could you see what was

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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happening downstairs?

A. No.

Q. When you were upstairs could you hear what was happening

downstairs?

A. I could hear voices, I never heard any distinct words.

Q. Could you identify whose voices you could hear?

A. They weren't that loud, no.

Q. So how long were you upstairs?

A. The better part of the day.

Q. You don't know who came in and out of that room because

you were upstairs, would you agree?

A. No, I know who came out when I left.

Q. But you don't know who went in or who went out in the

meantime, do you?

A. No.

Q. When you drive with these people down to Rosebud to the

Bill Means' residence you are telling the jury that nobody

said a word?

A. I don't remember any conversation significant enough to

know what anybody said.

Q. Kind of hard to remember what people say 28 years later,

isn't it?

A. Well, if it is just general conversation.

Q. You don't know the purpose of the stop at the Bill

Means' house, do you agree?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Palls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

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