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PAGES 251 to 265

 

 

PAGE 251

 

Q. Wasn't in your house at all?

A. I don't know, I didn't see him. I can't say whether he

was or he wasn't, I did not see him.

Q. But he told you he wasn't in your house, didn't he?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you during the meeting?

A. Part of the time I was in the kitchen, part of the time

I went back to the back where Anna Mae was, and another little

by way in to my bedroom.

Q. When you went back to where Anna Mae was, did you visit

with her?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say to you?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay, Your Honor.

THE COURT: How about did he say anything to you?

Sustained.

MR. McMAHON: I like that.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Did she say anything to you?

A. Yes. I don't remember the exact conversation, but she

was nervous about. I mean she was nervous about the fact that

there were a bunch of people there, and from the bedroom she

was in, it was directly in front of the parking lot, and so

anybody that came in to the house you could see who was coming

and going.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 252


Q. What was she doing when you went into the back bedroom?

A. She was sitting on the bed and she was distraught, I

guess is the word. She was not in a good place.

Q. Was she huddled up?

A. I think she had her head down. I don't remember, but I

know that she was, I think she had her head down, possibly on

her knees, I don't remember exactly.

Q. Was she frightened?

A. Yes.

MR. McMAHON: May I approach the witness, Your

Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. RENSCH: What page are you at, counsel?

MR. McMAHON: 47.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Have you had a chance to review a portion of your

previous grand jury testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to what she said

to you?

A. Yes.

Q. What did she say to you?

MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained in part. Once again, this

isn't offered for the truth of the matter stated, but rather

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 253


is to show Anna Mae Aquash's state of mind and what she may

have felt.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Go ahead, you can say what she said to you.

A. She said that if this occurred, if they took her back to

South Dakota, that I would never see her again. That no one

would ever see her again.

Q. What happened when the meeting was over?

A. Everybody just left, they just got up and all left.

Q. Did you -- did anybody say anything about where they

were going?

A. Somebody must have, because I understood they were going

back to South Dakota.

Q. Did you confront anyone?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Who?

A. My aunt.

Q. What did you say to her?

A. I asked her why they were doing that. I said why are

you doing this, what is the purpose of this, or why are you

doing this, you know. I don't understand this, you know, you

brought her here, you wanted her to be safe, and she doesn't

want to go, she doesn't want to go with you, so I don't

understand why you are doing this, why?

Q. Did you get an explanation?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 254


A. She just sort of yelled some obscenities and told me

that I was stupid, and I didn't know what was going on, and

kind of pushed me aside and told me to just shut up.

Q. So did they take Anna Mae?

A. Yeah, I, I don't remember exactly who, but somebody went

to the bathroom and told her to come on, she was going with

them.

Q. Was Anna Mae crying?

A. Yeah, she was crying.

Q. Was she scared?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she go voluntarily?

A. She didn't want to go with them, but she went

voluntarily, and I think it was because of me.

Q. Was she tied up?

A. No, she wasn't.

Q. Was she ever tied up?

A. I never saw her tied.

Q. Did you see them put her in the car?

A. I saw them when they were leaving. At some point I went

back to my bedroom, went back in to my bedroom and I spoke

with Angie Begay briefly, and I asked Angie to help me, you

know, to try to stop what was going on.

Q. Did you see who got in the car?

A. I am not exactly certain, but I know there were four

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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people in the car, because they put her in the hatch back, you

know, in the back of the little car.

Q. Whose car was it?

A. Aunt Theda's.

Q. What color was it?

A. It was red.

Q. You know what kind it was?

A. I think it was a Pinto.

Q. So you know she was put in to that car?

A. Um-hum.

Q. And now she was put in the back end?

A. Um-hum. She was small and she could fit in there

without much discomfort. You know, she was sitting up.

Q. Was Theda in the car?

A. Yes.

Q. Was John Graham in the car?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Arlo Looking Cloud in the car?

A. I think so.

Q. Did he later tell you that he was in the car?

A. I am not sure.

Q. What did you do then?

A. I tried to call the police.

Q. Did you call the police?

A. Yes.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 256


Q. Did you talk to somebody?

A. I, at that time there wasn't a 911 direct service, you

had to call a number, you know, like the seven digit number,

and then they put you through to a dispatcher, something like

that. And so I was only at the first part of the call and

Angle Begay came in and hung the phone up and said, you know,

don't do this. You know, it is just going to cause more

problems, don't do this, don't get involved in this.

Q. So you say Angie Begay?

A. Yes.

Q. What is her name now?

A. Angie Janis.

Q. And she stopped you from making that call?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you try to call back?

A. No.

Q. Did you try to call back after Angie left?

A. I don't know if Angie left, I don't remember.

Q. Well, she didn't live with you for the rest of your

life, did she?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever call the police and report this?

A. No.

Q. When was the next time you saw Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. I don't remember.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 257


Q. Do you remember when the next time it was that you saw

John Graham?

A. I don't know the, I don't know the exact date, but it

was soon after that time. I don't know the exact time, but it

was soon, like within a week or something like that I would

say.

Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Graham what had happened?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. Because I had heard, or I had talked with somebody in

South Dakota and they said that Anna Mae was in Oglala, so I

didn't think there was any concern.

Q. Well, at some point in time did you learn that she had

been killed?

A. Not until the day that they found her.

Q. So eventually you did?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Did you ask Mr. Graham what happened then?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. Because I never thought that he had anything to do with

it.

Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Looking Cloud what happened?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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A. For the same reason.

Q. So even though they left in the car with her, you didn't

think they had anything to do with it?

A. No. I never had anything to fear from them, they are

not anybody that I would fear, and there was nothing frightful

for me. It wasn't me that was frightened or fearful, it was

Anna Mae.

Q. That whole event, that whole meeting at your house

wasn't frightening to you at all?

A. No.

Q. Didn't bother you at all?

A. No.

Q. Why did you try to call the police then?

A. Because she didn't want to go.

Q. It must have bothered you somewhat then?

A. Yes.

Q. But then you just dropped it?

A. Yes.

Q. When was it that you found out she was dead?

A. We were here in Rapid City at Mother Butler's I think for

the, one of the anniversaries of Wounded Knee.

Q. So would it have been some time in February of '76?

A. Probably the end of February. Possibly the first of

March, I don't remember the exact date, but that is the

anniversary of Wounded Knee, and that is what was going on

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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here.

Q. Did you ever ask your Aunt Theda what had happened after

they left with her, with Anna Mae?

A. No, and if I had, she wouldn't have answered me anyway.

She never told me anything.

Q. Well, now after, some time after the body was discovered

you were approached by law enforcement on several different

occasions, weren't you?

A. A number of years later, yes.

Q. Like two years later?

A. I don't, I think it was much longer than two years. I

don't know the exact amount of time, but it was quite a while.

Q. And you refused to talk to them, didn't you?

A. Probably.

Q. Well, you did, didn't you?

A. Probably, yeah, I guess. You know. I didn't have too

much to talk about with law enforcement at that time.

Q. Well, is that because you had already forgotten about

this meeting that took place at your house?

A. No.

Q. You had remembered it still by then, hadn't you?

A. It had nothing to do with that meeting.

Q. It didn't?

A. No. It wasn't my practice to talk at all to law

enforcement.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR. CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 260


Q. So when Anna Mae was being taken out of your house you

attempted to call the police, but after you found out she was

dead you refused to talk with law enforcement?

A. Yes.

Q. When was the first time that you visited with

Mr. Looking Cloud about what had happened that evening after

they left your house?

A. I don't think I ever did. Arlo never discussed anything

with me, he would not have involved me in any of it.

Q. We talked a minute ago about the fact that you were in

on a conversation.

A. Well, I didn't know anything until that time. Until this

time that he talked to Trudell I never knew anything about

what had happened.

Q. Okay. My question was when was the first time?

A. That was the first time.

Q. So it would have been when you and Mr. Looking Cloud met

with John Trudell?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was John Trudell?

A. John Trudell was at one time the national spokesman for

the American Indian Movement. He was also a close, a very

close friend. And at this particular time he was, he was a

poet, and he was traveling with a group called Midnight Oil,

and he was the opening performance for them. And he was in

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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Denver. He called and told me that he was going to be there

and that he would leave tickets for me at the box office. And

so Arlo just happened to come that evening and we picked up

the tickets and went to the Midnight Oil concert. And then

the tickets had back stage passes and we went to, we went back-

stage and met the people that were part of the Midnight Oil

group, and I think Quilt Man and who ever else was traveling

with Trudell.

Q. Who was in on this conversation with John Trudell?

A. We went, after the concert we went to a hotel downtown

that they were all staying at, the bands were staying at, and

we were there with them for a little while. I don't know how

long, but for some length of time everybody just visited

upstairs in the hotel room. And then at some point in time

Arlo and Trudell and I went down to my car, it was parked on

the street beside the hotel.

Q. So just the three of you then had a conversation?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Mr. Looking Cloud talk about what happened after

they left your house that night with Anna Mae?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he tell you and Mr. Trudell where they went to?

A. I think he said they went to Rapid City.

Q. Did he tell you where they went in Rapid City?

A. I am not sure that he told me, but at what point in time

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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I learned that it was Thelma Rios' house, but I know they went

to Thelma Rios' house. I don't know that he told us that. I

don't remember exactly what was, who said what or who told

what, but I knew they went to Thelma Rios' home.

Q. He told you they went to a home in Rapid City?

A. mn-hum.

Q. Did he tell you where they went after that?

A. He said they went to Rosebud.

Q. And did he tell you what he did while they were in Rapid

City at that home?

A. No.

Q. Did he ever tell you that he was helping to guard Anna

Mae?

A. I think he was there, but I don't know that guard was

the word that was used.

Q. Well, may I approach. Your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Have you had a chance to review your grand jury

testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that help refresh you, what he said?

A. There was a question on there if Arlo was guarding Anna

Mae Aquash at that house, and my reply is that I think he was

along with John Boy, but I don't know that. I wasn't there.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 263


Q. Where did he tell you they went from Rapid City?

A. He just said to Rosebud.

Q. Did he tell you that they had stopped on the Pine Ridge

Reservation at Allen?

A. He may have, but I don't remember.

Q. He didn't say what particular place they went to on

Rosebud?

A. He didn't know.

Q. Did they stop somewhere?

A. What do you mean did they stop somewhere, when they got

to Rosebud?

Q. Yes.

A. He said they went to a house in Rosebud.

Q. They went to a house, but he didn't know whose house?

A. No.

Q. And what did he tell you took place while they were at

that house?

A. He said he didn't go in, he stayed outside. He sat

outside with Anna Mae in the car.

Q. And who went in the house?

A. I guess John Boy and Aunt Theda.

Q. What did he tell you about a conversation he had with

Anna Mae in the car while they were alone together in that

car?

A. He said that she told him that they were deciding her

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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fate in there, and that he should just let her go. He should

let her go.

Q. Didn't she beg him to let her go?

A. I think she asked him, you know, very sincerely. I

guess you could say begging.

Q. And he wouldn't let her go?

A. He said that he couldn't do that. That nothing -- she

thought that they were deciding what was going to happen to

her in there, and she told him that they were going to be,

what ever they decided in there he was probably going to have

to carry it through. And he said that he told her that that

wasn't, that wasn't going to happen, there wasn't any basis

for that, you know, he didn't believe that.

Q. He wouldn't let her go, would he?

A. No, he said he couldn't do that.

Q. Did he tell you where they went then?

A. He said they drove into the Bad Lands.

Q. To the Bad Lands?

A. Um-hum. I don't know the place.

Q. What happened then?

A. He said that they got out of the car, and that Theda

stayed in the car, and that he and John Boy walked up a hill.

Q. What was Anna Mae saying while they walked up that hill?

A. He said that she said that they didn't have, they don't

have to do this, they could just leave her there and let her

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

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go.

Q. Was she begging them not to kill her?

A. I don't know.

Q. You on one occasion relayed what Arlo told you to Kamook

Nichols, didn't you?

A. We discussed a lot of things.

Q. And that is part of what you discussed, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. And you have had an opportunity to review, just review

now a part of a tape recording transcript that was made during

that conversation, haven't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that help refresh your recollection as to what

Mr. Looking Cloud told you Anna Mae was saying as they walked

up that hill?

A. Yes.

Q. What was she saying?

A. That she asked them to let her go, that they didn't have

to do that to her.

Q. Was she crying?

A. She was crying I think.

Q. And she telling them that she had two young daughters?

A. I don't know that.

Q. She begged them to let her go?

A. I don't know that.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

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