Home

PAGES 236 to 250

 

 

PAGE 236

 

December, 1975?

A. 4494 Pecos Number 1.

Q. What type of a residence was that?

A. It was a triplex with three apartments all in one unit.

Q. And you had one of the units?

A. I had the first unit.

Q. How big was it?

A. It was a three bedroom house with a bathroom, a kitchen,

dining room, living room.

Q. How many bedrooms?

A. Three.

Q. On what level?

A. They were all on the, on the upper floor level.

Q. Was there an upstairs?

A. No.

Q. Was there a basement?

A. Yes.

Q. How big was the basement?

A. It was as big as the entire upper floor.

Q. So it was all one room down there?

A. Yes.

(Exhibit 12 marked For identification.)

BY MR. McMAHON:

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 237


Q. I have laid Exhibit 12 in front of you, can you tell me

what that is a picture of?

A. A picture looks like at 4494 Pecos.

Q. Where you lived?

A. Yes.

MR. McMAHON: Offer Exhibit 12.

MR. RENSCH: No objection.

THE COURT: Exhibit 12 is received.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Do you know Mr. Arlo Looking Cloud?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. How long have you known him?

A. For more than thirty years.

Q. Is he present in the courtroom?

A. Yes, he is.

Q. What is he wearing?

A. A checkered erred shirt.

Q. Would you point him out?

A. He is sitting right there.

MR. McMAHON: May the record reflect she pointed to

the defendant. Your Honor?

THE COURT: It may.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. How old are you?

A. I am 54 years old.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 238


Q. How old is Mr. Looking Cloud?

A. I think 50, but I am not sure. Forty-nine maybe, I

don' t know.

Q. So you are close to the same age?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you grow up together?

A. No. I never knew Arlo until he was in his late teens,

middle teens maybe.

Q. You were living in Denver at the time?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he living in Denver at the time?

A. He lived in Aurora.

Q. And the two of you became very close?

A. We have been friends for a long time.

Q. And you described that friendship as very close?

A. Yes.

Q. And you described it was he was one of your best

friends?

A. Yes, he was like my brother.

Q. Did he stay at your house?

A. He never lived at my house, but he has always been

welcome in my home, and he comes and goes when ever he feels

like it.

Q. Did other members of AIM come and go and stay at your

house in Denver?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 239


A. Yes.

Q. Was it used as a safe house, for lack of a better word?

A. It was just a home that people were welcome in. I don't

know that it was a safe house. But it was a home that many

people came to and passed through.

Q. Were you a member of AIM?

A. I was, and I am.

Q. Approximately what year did you start attending AIM

events?

A. I think in 1970, maybe late '69. I am not sure. I

think '69-70.

Q. Was there a AIM chapter in Denver?

A. Yes, there was.

Q. So I am assuming you attended events in Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. And other places?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you and Mr. Looking Cloud attend events together?

A. I think so.

Q. Did you travel together?

A. Yes.

Q. And those would have been to AIM events, I suppose some

of them in South Dakota?

A. Yes.

Q. And other places around the country?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, tt305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 240


A. I am not sure. Maybe Albuquerque, I am not sure.

Q. Would the two of you ride together?

A. Yes.

Q. Would other people go with you?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever know Anna Mae Aquash?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you get to know her?

A. I saw her at many of the different gatherings that we

all attended through the years, you know, during the time that

I knew her. It was mostly in passing.

Q. So you would see her at the various AIM events also?

A. Um-hum.

Q. And did you know John Boy Graham?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. He was also known as John Boy Patton I believe, correct?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you know him?

A. Not very long. During the time that he lived with Angie

Begay I knew him.

Q. And they lived in Denver?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever travel to any AIM events with them?

A. To the sundance. I don't know about, I don't remember

about AIM events, but I traveled with them to the sundance at

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 241


Green Grass, South Dakota.

Q. And did .Arlo Looking Cloud ride with you?

A. No.

Q. Was he at that sundance?

A. No.

Q. Did you have an occasion to see Anna Mae Aquash in

November of 1975?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you see her?

A. My Aunt Theda brought her to my home.

Q. When you talked about your Aunt Theda, who are you

talking about?

A. Theda Clark is my mother's sister.

Q. So she is literally your aunt?

A. Yes.

Q. Approximately what time in November was that, that she

brought her to your home?

A. I don't know the exact date, but it was late November.

It was before the week of Thanksgiving. I don't know the

dates.

Q. When she brought Anna Mae to your home was anyone with

them?

A. Her husband.

Q. Theda Clark's husband?

A. She was married to Julian Pokrywka.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 242


Q. Was anyone else with them?

A. Possibly her children, I don't remember.

Q. Why was Anna Mae being brought to your house?

A. She said, Aunt Theda said for safe keeping, I guess. I

don't know, just because she needed a place to stay that was

safe, and so she brought her there, I don't know. Other than

that, I don't know.

Q. Did she tell you anything other than to just let her

stay with you?

A. She asked me to watch out for her and not to let

anything happen to her.

Q. Who was living with you at the time?

A. Just me and my children.

Q. When Anna Mae was brought to your house by Theda Clark,

did she have any suitcases with her?

A. She had nothing.

Q. No personal belongings of any kind?

A. No.

Q. Nothing other than the clothes she was wearing?

A. I think she had like a small, like maybe a paper bag or

something like that with, I don't know really, not anything

of.

Q. Where had she come from, do you know?

A. She told me she came from Pierre, South Dakota.

Q. Pierre, South Dakota?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 243


A. Um-hum.

Q. Did she discuss with you the fact that she had jumped

bond?

A. Yes.

Q. So you knew she was on the run?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did Anna Mae stay with you?

A. I don't know the exact extent or length of the time.

Possibly two weeks, ten days, I don't really know.

Q. Was it December when she left?

A. It was early December, yes.

Q. Did the two of you have a chance to visit while she was

staying with you?

A. Yes.

Q. What was her state of mind?

A. She was nervous, she was paranoid, she was, I don't

know, she was sad.

Q. When you say she was paranoid, what do you mean?

A. She felt that -- well, she told me that people were

accusing her of giving other people up, and that they were

blaming her for all these different busts, or whatever you

want to call them. That's what we called them, and she felt

bad that people thought that she was a snitch.

Q. Did she tell you she was not a snitch?

A. I don't know that she ever really actually said that she

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 244


wasn't, but it was understood. I mean I understood that, and

she didn't have to tell me that she wasn't, I never believed

that she was.

Q. Was she scared?

A. Yes. I don't know that she -- like when anybody came,

she would go to the bathroom and just close the door. She

didn't want to see anybody.

Q. Did you have any discussions with her about any

relationships she had with other men?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was that?

A. Dennis Banks.

Q. Did you know that relationship was going on while it was

going on?

A. No.

Q. Not until she told you?

A. Not until she told me.

Q. Did she ever mention to you any individuals that were

accusing her of being an informant?

A. Not specifically.

Q. Did she ever mention any instances where she might have

been confronted by anyone?

A. She mentioned one incident regarding Peltier, but other

than that I don't really remember anybody else.

Q. Did she mention where that happened?

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 245


A. I think she said in Mexico, but I don't remember the

exact place.

Q. Did she tell you what happened?

A. She said that there was some --

MR. RENSCH: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. McMAHON: Goes to state of mind, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I will allow it in part with a limiting

instruction again, which I have given you with regard to this

same kind of testimony before. It is not for the truth of the

matter stated, but rather it is with regard to the state of

mind of Ms. Aquash and what she would have manifested. You

may answer.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. I think the question was what did she tell you about

that confrontation?

A. She said that people were distancing themselves from

her, or were mistrustful of her, or I don't know. They

weren't treating her the same as they had before.

Q. You mentioned a particular incidence that she told you

about and mentioned Mr. Peltier, that's what I am asking you

about?

A. She said that Leonard had held a gun to her head and had

asked her, and told her that everybody was saying she was a

snitch, and asked her. I think she said something like he

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 246


wanted to hear it from the horse's mouth. She said that she

just, she cried. She told him, you know, if you believe that

about me, then I give you permission to pull the trigger. But

don't threaten me, don't do this to me if. If you think that

about me, then just get it over with, but either kill me or

defend me.

Q. Did there come a time while Anna Mae was staying at your

home that there was a gathering of people to discuss her?

A. There was a gathering of people. I didn't know that

they were there to discuss her, but a lot of people came to my

home and they, Aunt Theda was there, and they had a meeting in

my living room.

Q. Did you hear what the meeting was about?

A. No.

Q. You have no idea what it was about?

A. No.

Q. You never went in the room at all?

A. I went in to give them coffee. I took a tray of coffee

and sugar and cream and set it on the coffee table.

Q. And you didn't hear any discussions while you were in

there?

A. No. I kind of think that things kind of quieted down

when I came in, they were kind of murmuring and talking

amongst themselves, and the only thing that I --

MR. RENSCH: She is narrating, Your Honor,

JERRY J. MAY. RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 247


objection.

THE COURT: No, overruled.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Go ahead.

A. The only thing that I remember is that I looked up and I

saw Ernesto Vijil.

MR. RENSCH: Object on the same hearsay grounds I

objected before.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. McMAHON:

Q. Did you discover the meeting was about whether or not

she was an informant?

A. No, I don't know what the meeting was about. I never

knew what that meeting was about.

Q. How long did the meeting last?

A. Not very long. I don't know, less than a half an hour,

maybe fifteen, twenty minutes, I don't know. I don't

remember.

Q. You said Theda Clark was there?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else was there?

A. Ernesto Vijil.

Q. Who is that?

A. He was Corky Gonzalez's right-hand man, and Corky

Gonzalez from the Crusade for Justice was there as well.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 248


Q. And who else?

A. I am not sure.

Q. You don't remember who was having this meeting in your

home?

A. No, there was, there were many people, I don't know who

they all were, those are the people that I can remember.

Q. You remember three out of the many people?

A. Um-hum.

Q. And you served coffee to them?

A. Um-hum.

Q. You can't remember anyone else?

A. I didn't even remember that meeting until I went before

the grand jury and I was questioned about it, I had forgotten

about that totally.

Q. You forgot about the meeting?

A. Um-hum.

Q. Isn't this the meeting where Anna Mae was taken from

your home?

A. Yes.

Q. And you forgot about that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Was Mr. Looking Cloud there?

A. I think he was.

Q. You have talked to him about this incident, haven't you?

A. Talked with him about it? Not really.

JERRY J. MAY. RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 249


Q. Pardon me?

A. Not really.

Q. You haven't ever talked with Mr. Looking Cloud about

what happened?

A. No.

Q. Did you ever have a meeting with Mr. Looking Cloud and

Kamook Nichols?

A. Yes.

Q. And didn't you talk about this then?

A. Kamook asked questions, and a little bit of discussion

around it.

Q. Well, you were in on that conversation, weren't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Didn't you go meet with Mr. Looking Cloud, you and he

and John Trudell have a meeting?

A. Yes.

Q. And wasn't it discussed then?

A. Yes, but I wasn't a part of the discussion. I was only,

I mean I was there, but what took place was between Arlo and

Trudell.

Q. You heard what was being said?

A. Yes.

Q. So you said that you believe Mr. Looking Cloud was

there, is that where we left off?

A. Yes.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #305A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

 

PAGE 250


Q. How about John Graham?

A. Yes, he was there.

Q. And Anna Mae was there?

A. Yes, she was in the back bedroom.

Q. Was Mr. Looking Cloud in the back bedroom with her?

A. No.

Q. He wasn't?

A. No.

Q. Where was he?

A. I don't know, I don't even know when Arlo came. I don't

remember that. I don't even know that I saw him there. I

know that he was there, I don't really know how I know he was

there, but I don't remember seeing him. I know I didn't talk

to him. I don't know if I saw him when they were leaving, I

don't really remember.

Q. So you remember seeing him some point in time, and you

just don't remember when it was?

A. No.

Q. No, you don't remember?

A. No.

Q. In fact, Mr. Looking Cloud has previously told you that

he wasn't even in your house, hasn't he?

A. I think so.

Q. Well, did he?

A. Yes.

JERRY J. MAY, RPR, CM 400 South Phillips Avenue, #30 5A
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57104 (605) 330-4877

Pages 251 ~ 265 >>